the flaws of modern rebellion.

[Nips]

so that thread about emo being lame got me thinking about this. most punkers are pretty quick to slam other genres or scenes and rip into their little hyporiticisms, but never take the time to question the problems in punk.

as far as modern rebellion goes, at least in the music scene, punks consider themselves to be the largest and most progressive of all the movements, but what has it really achieved? this revolution isnt happening, wether its person by person or as a large radical event, little is going on. i feel content in myself and my ideologies, enough to feel like its made a difference to me, but the world around me hasnt changed.

whats wrong with punk? does it really work?

[ChrisJones]

remember kids.

punk is about conforming to a set of values

punk is about dressing like what you see on TV and magazines

punk is about mimicking famous punk bands and ripping them off

punk is about selling lots of CD's and getting on Warped Tour

punk is a group once you join you have to follow the code

AND RULE 101 of punk
DONT EVER MENTION YOU LISTEN TO SOMETHING NON PUNK. EVER. DOING SO WILL TERMINATE YOUR CREDIBILITY AS A HUMAN BEING, AND STATUS AS A PUNK

[Nips]

k, youve posted that twice and it held very little value the first time. fancy actually answering the question... or just, you know, not spasticating my thread?

[ChrisJones]

k, youve posted that twice and it held very little value the first time. fancy actually answering the question... or just, you know, not spasticating my thread?

My bad, it's become my mantra because it encompasses much of what's wrong with punk rock.

[Nips]

it encompases what punks like to think is wrong with punkrock so they dont have to actually questions what theyre doing.

i shall clarify; this thread addresses what i guess we would call 'real punk'. pop bands on warped tour have nothing to do with why underground punk still achieves very little, if anything at all.

[Nips]

...and i told you that you had missunderstood the question and then revised it, stop being a pedantic prick. i mean really, where is the point in that last post?

[BEERnBRATWURST]

this revolution isnt happening,

Anytime a revolution gets too big, the capatalistic society we live in tends to see it as an opportunity to cash in. The revolution is effectively turned into a fad, t-shirts are printed, and meaning is lost. It becomes the "accepted" deviation from the mainstream......blah blah.

I don't think there is anything wrong with punk at the grass roots level (real punk), and I never really expected it to grow beyond that and still be real punk. I love going to the local dive and paying 5 bucks to see the up and coming local bands....a crowd of about 30 people...everyone drinks together and has a good time. That's real punk for me. I think the problem is when it gets commercialized and injected into the mainstream of entertainment. I never expected punk to change the world, so i'm not too disappointed that it hasn't.

[Ailo]

do you have pms?

[BEERnBRATWURST]

do you have pms?


You would be much easier to tollerate if you could actually say who it is your speaking to..........

[Ailo]

sorry.. it was to Nibs :p

[jonhomeowner]

so that thread about emo being lame got me thinking about this. most punkers are pretty quick to slam other genres or scenes and rip into their little hyporiticisms, but never take the time to question the problems in punk.

as far as modern rebellion goes, at least in the music scene, punks consider themselves to be the largest and most progressive of all the movements, but what has it really achieved? this revolution isnt happening, wether its person by person or as a large radical event, little is going on. i feel content in myself and my ideologies, enough to feel like its made a difference to me, but the world around me hasnt changed.

whats wrong with punk? does it really work?
What's wrong with punk is that it lost its way. There are even REPUBLICAN and CONSERVATIVE punks now... People that are pedestals holding the whole system up, and love themselves for it.

Punk lost its way long ago, if it even had a way. It's too mainstream now, so people have bent it to conform to what they believe.

[PROGNOSIS NEGATIVE]

punk works best on a local level to give the kids an alternative to the mundane mainstream crap.

[ChrisJones]

Punk at it's core was always about rebellion against the status quo.

It's about freedom of expression and accepting others forms of expression(as long as those forms also rebel against the status quo)

I don't believe the original punks cared about politics too much. They thought it was a joke along with religion. They were beligerent street rats that made fun of everything and had a great time doing it.

When punk became hardcore, all the militant PC folks popped up. The rules and laws were set forth. The word "poser" was introduced. But hardcore also gave us the DIY ethic, independant labels, and the anybody-can-be-in-a-band fuck mainstream music ideals, so it wasn't entirely bad.

Punk might be an important trend, but it certainly isn't the status quo. I'm guessing like 1 in every 30,000 people identifies themselves as a punk rocker.

It's funny, the more punk rockers there are, the more people call them conformists. Yet the less punks there are, the more they are referred to as a dying breed. That's a paradox.

[DEVIN 75]

My bad, it's become my mantra because it encompasses much of what's wrong with punk rock.

There's a lot more wrong with it these days than just those areas of thought my dear boy...

[ChrisJones]

There's a lot more wrong with it these days than just those areas of thought my dear boy...
They are the first issues that come to mind.
I said "it encompasses much" not "all"

(Please don't turn into jon and nitpick everything I say, this site is quickly becoming a hostile environment to me, as fun as it is to debate endlessly it gets tiring.)

[DEVIN 75]

They are the first issues that come to mind.
I said "it encompasses much" not "all"

(Please don't turn into jon and nitpick everything I say, this site is quickly becoming a hostile environment to me, as fun as it is to debate endlessly it gets tiring.)

Hey now, I'm sure by now you grasp that if I wanted to result to dirty limericks and put downs I would've definitely slammed down a bit harder thank this.

[jonhomeowner]

this site is quickly becoming a hostile environment to me, as fun as it is to debate endlessly it gets tiring.
Two things.

Maybe, if you didn't say so many stupid things, that wouldn't be a problem.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e109/pocketthesaurus/owned/someone-with-a-different-opinion-1.gif

[Fukface82]

Anytime a revolution gets too big, the capatalistic society we live in tends to see it as an opportunity to cash in. The revolution is effectively turned into a fad, t-shirts are printed, and meaning is lost. It becomes the "accepted" deviation from the mainstream......blah blah.

I don't think there is anything wrong with punk at the grass roots level (real punk), and I never really expected it to grow beyond that and still be real punk. I love going to the local dive and paying 5 bucks to see the up and coming local bands....a crowd of about 30 people...everyone drinks together and has a good time. That's real punk for me. I think the problem is when it gets commercialized and injected into the mainstream of entertainment. I never expected punk to change the world, so i'm not too disappointed that it hasn't.

haha yeah. I was gonna chime in with the opinion that acceptance killed punk rock.

Most people are too happy with thier consumer addictions to search for any more in life.

[KidoftheBlackHole]

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e109/pocketthesaurus/owned/someone-with-a-different-opinion-1.gif[/QUOTE]

Awesome.

[Bad Terry]

In my opinion, punk initially was never suppose to be a vehicle for social/political change. Though some groups, both good and bad,have tried over the years to manipulate punks for their own purposes.

[dead_head]

Anytime a revolution gets too big, the capatalistic society we live in tends to see it as an opportunity to cash in. The revolution is effectively turned into a fad, t-shirts are printed, and meaning is lost. It becomes the "accepted" deviation from the mainstream......blah blah.

I don't think there is anything wrong with punk at the grass roots level (real punk), and I never really expected it to grow beyond that and still be real punk. I love going to the local dive and paying 5 bucks to see the up and coming local bands....a crowd of about 30 people...everyone drinks together and has a good time. That's real punk for me. I think the problem is when it gets commercialized and injected into the mainstream of entertainment. I never expected punk to change the world, so i'm not too disappointed that it hasn't.


You hit the nail on the head. Thats all i have to say

[codebluecary]

Its ok Chris,Sometimes I like to stir the shit,and see what flies out!!!

[ThePope]

toothpaste for dinner!!!!

anyway, punk has been mainstream for 30 years now, nothing new here

[unholy_steve]

and i thought i was the only one who liked toothpaste for dinner!

[green_machine]

Minty fresh goodness all the way! The glass does wonders for my tummy.

[unholy_steve]

i'm not sure you truly understand.

[thebigother]

Punk rock is largly a sub-culture based on nihilism and antipathy. Of course it isn't going to accomplish much.

[Nips]

do you have pms?

uhhggg, youre a moron. chris might often say stupid things but at least his arguments are half way near coherent. you, however, are the embodyment of spastication.

[Nips]

In my opinion, punk initially was never suppose to be a vehicle for social/political change. Though some groups, both good and bad,have tried over the years to manipulate punks for their own purposes.

this is retarded, id say its almost impossible for any subculture to not be a vehicle of social/political change. simply by being they begin to do these things.



anyway, i dont really buy into this 'its too mainstream' arguement. id agree that marketing it as fashion is a fantastic way for commercial culture to void a movement, but there is still the underground element which, in its closed nature, is impossible to market. this element, however, still fails to make political headway.

sure, its successfull as far as the music goes. everyone loves going to see the local bands and what not, thats a given. but, there are still organised (not so nihilistic, zach) factions, like crass et all, that are/were actively working towards change and still dont really get anywhere. are these areas simply not mainstream enough to make an impact? is there a catch 22 within punk?

[thebigother]

Even not so nihilistic groups and factions like Crass were singing about the impending nuclear war. It's not that everybody in punk rock is a nihilist, but that the sort of "no future" context has become ingrained in the collective punk psyche. But I think that the antipathy aparent in punk rock is the bigger problem. Nobody accomplishes anything because they've allowed themselves to be defined more by what they're against rather than what what they are for. Instead of singing "We hate the government, we hate capitalism," they should be singing "We're for autonomous self sustainable communities."

[ChrisJones]

Even not so nihilistic groups and factions like Crass were singing about the impending nuclear war. It's not that everybody in punk rock is a nihilist, but that the sort of "no future" context has become ingrained in the collective punk psyche. But I think that the antipathy aparent in punk rock is the bigger problem. Nobody accomplishes anything because they've allowed themselves to be defined more by what they're against rather than what what they are for. Instead of singing "We hate the government, we hate capitalism," they should be singing "We're for autonomous self sustainable communities."

Punk sounds better when it's sung by a snotty asshole chanting how much life sucks and society sucks and making fun of people.

Unless there's beer or a mosh pit, than they sing about that.

Anything deeper, you might get a movement briefly but soon it loses people's attention. The music public has ADHD

[Nips]

Nobody accomplishes anything because they've allowed themselves to be defined more by what they're against rather than what what they are for. Instead of singing "We hate the government, we hate capitalism," they should be singing "We're for autonomous self sustainable communities."

good point.

[jonhomeowner]

This is why I do my best to define myself without using "anti".

[ChrisJones]

Rebellion is breaking down barriers, not creating new ones.

[Mike Virus]

Punk has given millions a sense of belonging who otherwise felt like they could not connect to anything. It has inspired millions to get out there and start their own bands. Start their own zines, book their own shows. It has given people a voice who otherwise felt they had none.

In my mind punk has changed everything.

[unholy_steve]

you make a good point there mike, i haven't thought of it that way

[ChrisJones]

you make a good point there mike, i haven't thought of it that way

you can learn alot from a spikey hair man in a leather jacket

yarr

[BEERnBRATWURST]

Punk has given millions a sense of belonging who otherwise felt like they could not connect to anything. It has inspired millions to get out there and start their own bands. Start their own zines, book their own shows. It has given people a voice who otherwise felt they had none.

In my mind punk has changed everything.

Indeed a good point. Very true.

[Spiralz]

so that thread about emo being lame got me thinking about this. most punkers are pretty quick to slam other genres or scenes and rip into their little hyporiticisms, but never take the time to question the problems in punk.

as far as modern rebellion goes, at least in the music scene, punks consider themselves to be the largest and most progressive of all the movements, but what has it really achieved? this revolution isnt happening, wether its person by person or as a large radical event, little is going on. i feel content in myself and my ideologies, enough to feel like its made a difference to me, but the world around me hasnt changed.

whats wrong with punk? does it really work?

The rebellion that modern punk bands tout today is trivial and sadly nostalgic at best, hence the conflict with the ever so popular question; "what is punk"? and that's definitely part of the problem, which intern creates elitism. The truth is the genre prevails, yet in a very superficial way, and attempts at capturing that raw energy that the music had during it's heyday are lacking in abundance.

[ChrisJones]

The rebellion that modern punk bands tout today is trivial and sadly nostalgic at best, hence the conflict with the ever so popular question; "what is punk"? and that's definitely part of the problem, which intern creates elitism. The truth is the genre prevails, yet in a very superficial way, and attempts at capturing that raw energy that the music had during it's heyday are lacking in abundance.
drop the nostalgia

strip it down

go nuts again!

[Spiralz]

^exactly

[BEERnBRATWURST]

Also, it's very difficult to commit your life to "real punk" without a "real" job. Unless you start a band, fanzine....etc, you pretty much have to join the mainstream your rebelling against to afford rent, food... etc. The movement is stronger with the youth, since they are living at mom and dad's house rent free. The adults, on the other hand, find they have less time to dedicate to the punk movement because they have to work to feed their families....etc.

The death of punk is when the punkers have to go to work full time...

[ChrisJones]

Also, it's very difficult to commit your life to "real punk" without a "real" job. Unless you start a band, fanzine....etc, you pretty much have to join the mainstream your rebelling against to afford rent, food... etc. The movement is stronger with the youth, since they are living at mom and dad's house rent free. The adults, on the other hand, find they have less time to dedicate to the punk movement because they have to work to feed their families....etc.

The death of punk is when the punkers have to go to work full time...

It's like the raging fire inside burns down to a small flame.

[Phil_Spectre]

I love punk, it's punks I can't stand.

[TeenageWarning]

punk is mostly about passion for the music look at the casualties
and as far as rebelling goes.. to me it's just doing things that seem perfectly okay to me like : spraypaint, skating and destroying, putting up shows in places where there aren't supposed to be any shows ^-^ (lol)
things that don't seem so okay to the law.
Yes i concider myself and anarchist in some ways.

oh and : ché was a murderer

[Fukface82]

I love punk, it's punks I can't stand.

hahahahahaha I can't agree with you more. I don't feel the same about every punk, skin, or whatever just the cunts that always walk around with an axe to grind like you should give a fuck and think the same as them. There's quite a lot of propaganda bullshit that floats around in the scene that doesn't help cohesion. People also don't know how to respect opinion. If you can't give a little bit of respect even to your opposition you deserve none yourself.

[Spiralz]

I'm a passive anarchist....:confused:

[Fukface82]

I'm a passive anarchist....:confused:

what, like laugh when bad shit happens? haha

[ChrisJones]

what, like laugh when bad shit happens? haha

or shit when bad laughing happens

[Fukface82]

or shit when bad laughing happens

I'm assuming your referring to uptight assholes that are horrified by innapropriate laugher....which in pure fact is the funniest thing concievable hahahaha

[Spiralz]

what, like laugh when bad shit happens? haha

well that was the premise of the joke yes...haha

[ShoutSoLoud]

I see the problem with "real punk" being that it isn't taken seriously anymore. Punk as it was in the late 70's and early 80's actually spawned reactions and some, albeit minor, response from "higher" levels of society. Where the downfall comes in is that it's been done. The punk scene is just apeing what it's predecessors did with a lot less action and a lot more talk. Few punk kids today actually live what they're listening to. I see few kids nowadays living in squats, fashioning their own clothing, living off the excess of society, etc. (mind you, these aren't necessarily the tenets of "true punk")
Today we see kids living in their parents' houses, using their parents' money to buy the seeds of their rebellion, and generally backing down from the beliefs that they say they profess. Anti-whatever, do something about it. Music is wonderful yes, but not the answer to a systematically worsening society. I see more protests from pro-choice groups than black bloc groups. More upraised voices from M.A.D.D. than from anti-war, pro-anarchist, punk kids.
Inaction and complacency is a fact in the modern punk scene. People are just so happy to belong to something for once that they stop there.
Mind you, this is only one problem I see. There are many.

[jonhomeowner]

oh and : ché was a murderer
An awesome, awesome murderer.

Most rebel leaders are.

[Phil_Spectre]

Che would send you to the work camp for liking rock music.

[Fukface82]

I like to say everything is relevant, but this thread might just prove me wrong.

[ThePope]

this thread would be aptly titled "the flaws of small scale rebellion irrespective of time period"

[Fukface82]

this thread would be aptly titled "the flaws of small scale rebellion irrespective of time period"

I concur sir.

[Nips]

this thread would be aptly titled "the flaws of small scale rebellion irrespective of time period"

ok... from now, that is the title.

i don think anyone would try and claim that punk was anything else. i know i wasnt.