Wisdom

[kingrocker]

When I was 18 and starting my career there was a grumpy old man that I worked with. So one day paychecks were issued and I didn't receive mine. When I started asking where mine was, the old man looked at me and said "Don't worry about me, I got mine". He used it again when we were having a potluck at work and I got in a little late. There was no food left. Again I heard the words " Don't worry about me, I got mine".


Those are now words that I live by. That man was so smart. At the time I just thought he was an asshole.LOL

[ChrisJones]

he was selfish. he got what he wanted at the expense of others. you must think GWB is most intelligent man alive.

[jonhomeowner]

More lectures from ChrisJones.

Of course the old man was selfish - you can't get by in this world if you're not.

[kingrocker]

he was selfish. he got what he wanted at the expense of others. you must think GWB is most intelligent man alive.

No one is responsible for taking care of me other than me. To expect people too is stupid. I learned I need to lookout for myself. And it is a very good lesson to learn. Whinning gets you no where.

[ChrisJones]

You can get by without taking advantage of people.

[kingrocker]

Well chris jones you do it your way but

Don't worry about me, I got mine.

[ChrisJones]

lol it's still a great quote

shut up jonhomophobe. It's not my fault you can't find enough penis to satisfy you.

[BEERnBRATWURST]

he was selfish. he got what he wanted at the expense of others. you must think GWB is most intelligent man alive.

Expense of others? Sounds like he took care of himself. You can't sit around and wait for the ChrisJones's of the world to give you a handout.......

[ChrisJones]

No. the old man basically said "tough titties"

The Chrisjones of the world don't give handouts, and nor do we accept them. I am in individual independant person, not a leech, nor a saint. I hate people.

[Graphic Kisses]

I agree with you Chris. Good quote... but sounds like an ass. Who gives a flying fuck that he got his paycheck. Congratulations... now where is mine? And as for the food, I'm sure he made sure his plate was full, probably even got seconds.

I agree that you should take care of yourself, but seriously, once your shit is handled, why can't you help someone else with their shit? Some people can't take care of themselves. Not your problem, I know, but I suppose that's what's wrong with the worked these days. People only care about themselves.

Damn now I've gone off, haha. I'm gonna shut up and find my remote now.

Have you seen it??:confused:

[ChrisJones]

No one is responsible for taking care of me other than me. To expect people too is stupid. I learned I need to lookout for myself. And it is a very good lesson to learn. Whinning gets you no where.
You are holding a child. You must understand how important a child is to you. Much more important than your own needs. You learn to lookout for yourself, so one day, you can look out for your family. Do you teach your kid not to ask things of you? Do you turn his hungry mouth away cuz daddy is drinkin? No, you don't. Can't you extend that same love to your wife? to your friends? to strangers?

[kingrocker]

You are holding a child. You must understand how important a child is to you. Much more important than your own needs. You learn to lookout for yourself, so one day, you can look out for your family. Do you teach your kid not to ask things of you? Do you turn his hungry mouth away cuz daddy is drinkin? No, you don't. Can't you extend that same love to your wife? to your friends? to strangers?


Your right. My family My friends My loved ones. Don't worry about me I got mine. Mine includes my family. My needs are my family. And I can promise you I never go without a paycheck these days. I have to get mine. If I don't my kids don't eat. My point is no one really cares if me or my family eat except me and my family. There is not a chance that I won't look out for myself.

[ChrisJones]

and that makes me happy.(does this make me a fool?)

[jonhomeowner]

lol it's still a great quote

shut up jonhomophobe. It's not my fault you can't find enough penis to satisfy you.
Petty insults are no way to handle the criticism of your opinions.

And calling me jonhomophobe is just stupid. I am not afraid of homosexuals. Nor does penis ever satisfy me.

[ChrisJones]

Petty insults are no way to handle the criticism of your opinions.

And calling me jonhomophobe is just stupid. I am not afraid of homosexuals. Nor does penis ever satisfy me.

You're the only one I insult.

[jonhomeowner]

You're the only one I insult.
You have a crush on me, I take it?

All of the teasing, and comments about me apparently being a homosexual? One can only conclude that you are teasing me because you have a crush on me, and you talk about me being "in the closet" because deep down inside, you hope I am.

Well, sorry, like I said, I'm not into penis.

[BEERnBRATWURST]

Do you turn his hungry mouth away cuz daddy is drinkin?

You lost me right about here......

[ChrisJones]

You lost me right about here......

A reference to parents that have let alcoholism or any other selfish act of theirs ruin their family

[kingrocker]

A reference to parents that have let alcoholism or any other selfish act of theirs ruin their family
Wrong person to say that to, I don't drink

[BEERnBRATWURST]

lol it's still a great quote

shut up jonhomophobe. It's not my fault you can't find enough penis to satisfy you.


On a side note.... you need to step back, Jon is mine! Just because your penis doesn't satisfy...........nevermind.

[ChrisJones]

haha

[codebluecary]

If I can help someone I always will!!It`s like Karma.What goes around,comes around!Maybe someday you will need help,hopefully someone will be there to help you.Compassion,does`nt make you weak,it makes you a stronger person.It is much easier to just blow someone in need off and walk away,than to actually take time to help them!KISSES BABIES!PAM

[Nips]

A reference to parents that have let alcoholism or any other selfish act of theirs ruin their family

that reference makes no sense. addiction isnt 'selfish' persay. youre not really in control of your actions.

[ChrisJones]

that reference makes no sense. addiction isnt 'selfish' persay. youre not really in control of your actions.
When you put it that way, that's true. But as a recovering addict, one of the steps we had to take was to take responsibility for what we did, to apologize to the people we've hurt, and admit while powerless over our addictions we were being selfish.

[Nips]

regardless... silly example. anyway. continue.

[Smooth]

youre not really in control of your actions.

I've never really believed that.

You can always choose to throw the needle away instead of sticking it in your arm.

[Nips]

just like you can choose not to drink water. addiction at its hight is a physical need. its not really that easy.

[ChrisJones]

once you've been rehabed, its easier to fight

[Fukface82]

Good quote. Gotta take care of yourself before you can take care of others anyway. Gets you on the ball.

[Noodles]

No one is responsible for taking care of me other than me. To expect people too is stupid. I learned I need to lookout for myself. And it is a very good lesson to learn. Whinning gets you no where.

Definitely agree with you on that. It's perfectly explained that you shouldn't expect things to be handed to you in this world...instead reach out, and grab it.

Otherwise, you'll be sitting there with nothing. When you're caring for yourself, it doesn't mean your selfish. If you ONLY care about yourself, that's where being selfish comes in. Obviously this man cared about you, or he wouldn't be constantly giving you this metaphor.

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

[VIXXEN]

noooooooooooooooooooooodles is back

[Smooth]

just like you can choose not to drink water. addiction at its hight is a physical need. its not really that easy.

Apples and Oranges.


You physically cannot live without water, you can however live without drugs!

[jonhomeowner]

Not if your body craves it at a basic need level, which is what an addiction is.

[ChrisJones]

Not if your body craves it at a basic need level, which is what an addiction is.
Your black and white dictionary definition thinking just doesnt apply here jon. Everybody is different when it comes to addictions. It depends on the drug, the person, their frequency of abuse.

Someone that smokes a pack a day might be able to just drop it cold turkey with no problems.
On the other hand, somebody that smokes 3 cigarettes a day might have to get to hell and back just to fight their cravings.

These 2 people are both addicted, yet one of em has no problem dropping it.

Everybody is so different from one another.

[BEERnBRATWURST]

Your black and white dictionary definition thinking just doesnt apply here jon. Everybody is different when it comes to addictions. It depends on the drug, the person, their frequency of abuse.

Someone that smokes a pack a day might be able to just drop it cold turkey with no problems.
On the other hand, somebody that smokes 3 cigarettes a day might have to get to hell and back just to fight their cravings.

These 2 people are both addicted, yet one of em has no problem dropping it.

Everybody is so different from one another.


I thought addiction was the inability to just "drop it cold turkey"? If you can just stop tomorrow and never do it again...chances are your not addicted I would think....

[jonhomeowner]

Your black and white dictionary definition thinking just doesnt apply here jon. Everybody is different when it comes to addictions. It depends on the drug, the person, their frequency of abuse.
Neat. But what I said applies to many cases, besides, it's not reasonable to call something an addiction if somebody can just give it up easily.

[RickyS]

I'm addicted to this bickering.

Give me more!

[Smooth]

If you want to quit something all you really need is your own will.

[ChrisJones]

Neat. But what I said applies to many cases, besides, it's not reasonable to call something an addiction if somebody can just give it up easily.

Withdrawl from alcohol results in some minor shakes.
withdrawl from heroin results in convulsions, vomit, and sometimes death.

Just because the alcoholic has an easier time, does mean his addiction wasn't real?
There are certain levels of addictions.

[Nips]

Apples and Oranges.


You physically cannot live without water, you can however live without drugs!

way to miss the metaphor. swooooooooooooshhh.

[codebluecary]

If you want to quit something all you really need is your own will. Not always true,there are real clinical,physical addictions,in which the body can not survive with out the item of addiction.DT`s are not pretty!!!

[DEVIN 75]

Chris,

The statement garners an unfortunate ring of truth. You have to depend on yourself for sustenance. You can't wait or depend on others to feed you. Everyone has to earn their way in this life. Is there ever such a thing as a truly free lunch in life? The story is just a metaphor statement to that fact. If you feed, cloth, pay rent, mortgage, bills and other necessities then you should adopt and understand that fact. If you don't then will you make my house payment when I'm a little short?

While the old man can be an interpretive element of "common" society and possibly as previously stated by kingrocker an asshole. You missed that Kingrocker did state he learned something from the geezers phrase. I heard someone say the same thing long ago and I knew what they meant. If your truly independent there should be no fault found here. Some people just care more than others. It's hard to save the world Chris, and sometimes you have to save yourself first.

Addiction is a difficult compulsion to pinpoint. The degrees always vary from individual to individual. Your alcoholic father metaphor was unfounded and a stretch for this scenario. It was really meant as more of a taunt wasn't it?

[ChrisJones]

Independence doesn't mean you can just fuck people over to get what you want. That, in a way, is depending on them. You become a leech in society.

The father reference was pertaining to how it feels when somebody putting their needs ahead of others can be hurtful.

I'm not a communist. If you can't pay your bills that's your fault. If you happen to be a friend in need, well, I'm the kind of friend that will help out if I got the cash. That's called giving.

But I don't think that handouts should be institutionalized.

The geezer didn't have to cut in line.

There's no justifying that.

The lesson here is, if you let people cut you all the time and never stand up for yourself, there will always be someone in front of you bragging about what you don't have. The old man was wrong. He wasn't setting a good example for how people should act.

If you feel the need to cut people in line, be careful.

One day someone will stick out their foot and trip you.

[jonhomeowner]

If you can't pay your bills that's your fault.
Not always.

It's these kinds of absolute statements that are one of the causes that lead to the terrible world we live in.

[ChrisJones]

Not always.

It's these kinds of absolute statements that are one of the causes that lead to the terrible world we live in.

Assuming most of you folks live in capitalist modern democracies, if you can't pay your bills chances are you don't make enough money to support your means. Your means being food, shelter, and water. Even in the poorest places a fast food job and a few room mates can fix that.

Getting laid off from a specialist job is a tough circumstance, but in general, you can easily snatch up a lower paying job, eliminate some of your expenses, scale back a bit. There are government handouts to workers with families that are laid off. It just takes intelligence, courage, dedication and patience. Whenever me or somebody else can't pay their bills, I always notice a spot where things went off, i.e. laziness, disorganization, fear, low self esteem, a lack of understanding employment...

True you gotta be tough to survive. That's just the natural order of things. A lot of societies don't have the comforts we do, or the leverages to pull yourself out of a hole.

When I say "it's your fault you can't pay the bills" what I mean is "you're fucking up somewhere in your life and you need to fix that"

[jonhomeowner]

When I say "it's your fault you can't pay the bills" what I mean is "you're fucking up somewhere in your life and you need to fix that"
No, you're still wrong.

And you're still an idiot.

You're not taking into account a lot of things: rising prices of things, injuries, medical bills, etc, etc.

Those have nothing to do with living beyond your means, etc. If the government raises your taxes suddenly and you are already just making ends meet, then you're fucked. If you suddenly get injured somehow and have to miss work, then you're fucked... And after you get better and you have thousands of dollars in medical bills, you're fucked.

It has nothing to do with living beyond your means, you dumbfuck.

Even in the poorest places a fast food job and a few room mates can fix that.
And, no... Just no. Not even. In most big cities, a fast food job won't cut-it, roommates or not.

In closing, show me your privilege some more, plz.

[green_machine]

Assuming most of you folks live in capitalist modern democracies, if you can't pay your bills chances are you don't make enough money to support your means. Your means being food, shelter, and water. Even in the poorest places a fast food job and a few room mates can fix that.

Getting laid off from a specialist job is a tough circumstance, but in general, you can easily snatch up a lower paying job, eliminate some of your expenses, scale back a bit. There are government handouts to workers with families that are laid off. It just takes intelligence, courage, dedication and patience. Whenever me or somebody else can't pay their bills, I always notice a spot where things went off, i.e. laziness, disorganization, fear, low self esteem, a lack of understanding employment...

True you gotta be tough to survive. That's just the natural order of things. A lot of societies don't have the comforts we do, or the leverages to pull yourself out of a hole.

When I say "it's your fault you can't pay the bills" what I mean is "you're fucking up somewhere in your life and you need to fix that"

Not necessarily, I could blow the whistle on the city and lose my job because my company doesn't want to associate its self with me. I wouldn't be able to afford to pay my bills and it had nothing to do with "laziness, disorganization, fear, low self esteem, a lack of understanding employment." I wouldn't be lazy by acting out against the powers at be in the interest of the people who lived here, I don't have low self esteem if I'm putting myself out there, and if anything I understand employment pretty well since my father has been a senior financial analyst for a lot of big corporations.

[ChrisJones]

No, you're still wrong.

And you're still an idiot.

You're not taking into account a lot of things: rising prices of things, injuries, medical bills, etc, etc.

Don't call me an idiot. People go through tough times in life. That's a basic fact. You can't expect the government to give hand outs to every john, dick, and wanda that has a problem. Medical bills are a huge problem I agree. That needs to change. Health care is too expensive for what it is and how vital it is. I support universal health care.

Unemployment is tough, and there are programs that will help you along.



Those have nothing to do with living beyond your means, etc. If the government raises your taxes suddenly and you are already just making ends meet, then you're fucked.

Government taxes are never raised enough to put you on the streets. Find me proof of that.
If the IRS comes and audits you and finds out you owe money, then that's due to your own negligence for not paying.



If you suddenly get injured somehow and have to miss work, then you're fucked... And after you get better and you have thousands of dollars in medical bills, you're fucked.

Medical bill collectors don't repossess your belongings. There was a law passed for that years ago. They don't damage your credit either.

Get a job with benefits or seek out independent benefits on your own.

again, I support universal health care.


It has nothing to do with living beyond your means, you dumbfuck.


And, no... Just no. Not even. In most big cities, a fast food job won't cut-it, roommates or not.

Then move. If it's really that much of a problem, pack up and move. and if you whine "oh that's too much work". then I guess you deserve your lifestyle.


In closing, show me your privilege some more, plz.
Privilege? Get good grades in school for starters. 90 percent of your grades are work and studying. There are plenty of idiots that made it to college with no financial assistance. If you sucked in high school, you already fucked up phase one of your life.

Don't call me an idiot silly boy. I'm telling you how the world is, not how I wish it would be. And yes, life is hard. Are you one of those people that likes taking the easy road?

[ChrisJones]

Not necessarily, I could blow the whistle on the city and lose my job because my company doesn't want to associate its self with me. I wouldn't be able to afford to pay my bills and it had nothing to do with "laziness, disorganization, fear, low self esteem, a lack of understanding employment." I wouldn't be lazy by acting out against the powers at be in the interest of the people who lived here, I don't have low self esteem if I'm putting myself out there, and if anything I understand employment pretty well since my father has been a senior financial analyst for a lot of big corporations.

Well, you are missing my point completely.

By blowing the whistle, you knowingly put yourself into unemployment. And if you didnt realize that blowing the whistle would get you fired then you indeed had a "lack of understanding of employment"

You just dug your own hole. If there's a society that saves you from that, you should be extremely grateful.

[jonhomeowner]

Government taxes are never raised enough to put you on the streets. Find me proof of that.
If the IRS comes and audits you and finds out you owe money, then that's due to your own negligence for not paying.
I've seen property taxes go up by $1200 a year before.

That's $100 a month. That's a huge deal to most families.

Medical bill collectors don't repossess your belongings. There was a law passed for that years ago. They don't damage your credit either.
Really? I think you should look into that, then, if you think that's true.

My girlfriend just had to goto court over a medical bill, and the judge put a lien against her car... If she doesn't pay, the government will take it, sell it off, pay off the person she owes, and give her the rest of the money.

DAMN, LOOKS LIKE YOU'RE WRONG.

Get a job with benefits or seek out independent benefits on your own.
Man, damn! It's so very easy for you, isn't it? Again with the privilege. Not everybody is a white male that has had an easy life where they can just go and magically find a job with benefits.

Then move. If it's really that much of a problem, pack up and move. and if you whine "oh that's too much work". then I guess you deserve your lifestyle.
Move? That's another cost. You make everything so simple, but you don't seem to think any of it through. "Find a job with benefits" implies you can find a different job. "Move" implies you can afford to move.

Privilege? Get good grades in school for starters. 90 percent of your grades are work and studying.
And grades matter... What, when you aren't getting an education to begin with because your school doesn't teach you the fundamentals? A large majority of inner-city school graduates can't pass basic requirements for college when it comes to math and/or reading and/or english (let alone other things). And a lot of these graduates are getting good grades!

There are plenty of idiots that made it to college with no financial assistance. If you sucked in high school, you already fucked up phase one of your life.
What if you were good in high school, but your high school sucked?

Again with the over-simplification, "Oh, just do a good job and try." You sound like a parent to a kid, "You can do anything you put your mind to." Where do you get such delusions?

Don't call me an idiot silly boy. I'm telling you how the world is, not how I wish it would be.
You're not very good at telling anybody how the world is. You seem to have a lot of things confused and over-simplified.

You sound like every other privileged white male I've ever met that doesn't understand the basics of economics when it comes to being below middle-class.

[jonhomeowner]

Well, you are missing my point completely.

By blowing the whistle, you knowingly put yourself into unemployment. And if you didnt realize that blowing the whistle would get you fired then you indeed had a "lack of understanding of employment"

You just dug your own hole. If there's a society that saves you from that, you should be extremely grateful.
So you are saying that people shouldn't DO THE RIGHT thing because they should stay employed... Because if they become unemployed DOING THE RIGHT THING, then they deserve to be poor and/or homeless?

Wow, you're a fucking moron.

I wish I had read this post before replying to your other one, because now I feel like I'm just wasting time replying to someone that's too dense to understand anything remotely logical.

[ChrisJones]

I've seen property taxes go up by $1200 a year before.

That's $100 a month. That's a huge deal to most families.


Really? I think you should look into that, then, if you think that's true.

My girlfriend just had to goto court over a medical bill, and the judge put a lien against her car... If she doesn't pay, the government will take it, sell it off, pay off the person she owes, and give her the rest of the money.

DAMN, LOOKS LIKE YOU'RE WRONG.


I'm not defending the system here.

Man, damn! It's so very easy for you, isn't it? Again with the privilege. Not everybody is a white male that has had an easy life where they can just go and magically find a job with benefits.
I went to the mall with no experience and I worked hard to impress them. They liked me and I got hired. I enrolled in benefits. Any retard could have done that.

Move? That's another cost. You make everything so simple, but you don't seem to think any of it through. "Find a job with benefits" implies you can find a different job. "Move" implies you can afford to move.

I used to hitch hike and travel on trains to move around. It wasn't difficult. I'm not saying do that. I'm saying, it's fuckin possible on a budget. So what you have to lose some possessions.

And grades matter... What, when you aren't getting an education to begin with because your school doesn't teach you the fundamentals? A large majority of inner-city school graduates can't pass basic requirements for college when it comes to math and/or reading and/or english (let alone other things). And a lot of these graduates are getting good grades!

You got me here. Some school systems suck.


Again with the over-simplification, "Oh, just do a good job and try." You sound like a parent to a kid, "You can do anything you put your mind to." Where do you get such delusions?

Fine Jon. It's hopeless. There's no chance jon. Nobody has ever lifted themselves off the ground and fixed their lives. It's never happened ever in the course of civilization. Nope. Never. No poor kid has ever worked through college and started his own business. No poor kid has ever gone to college. Wow jon, where the fuck do you live?

Do you just go around telling everybody they are fucked and end of the world is near? Are you on a mission to tell everybody they are weak?

At least I'm urging people to stand up for themselves. Call me what you will but people need to wake up and take the reigns in their lives.

You sound like every other privileged white male I've ever met that doesn't understand the basics of economics when it comes to being below middle-class.

Funny. My mom worked at a bar to support 3 kids living in shitty apartments with no father. I went to school. I took economics and political science. Did you?

No. You are just convinced that there is no possible way a human being in America can solve his own problems or make his life better.

[ChrisJones]

So you are saying that people shouldn't DO THE RIGHT thing because they should stay employed... Because if they become unemployed DOING THE RIGHT THING, then they deserve to be poor and/or homeless?

Wow, you're a fucking moron.

I wish I had read this post before replying to your other one, because now I feel like I'm just wasting time replying to someone that's too dense to understand anything remotely logical.

The RIGHT THING. Ok. There's 2 choices here.

defending your coworkers

or

feeding on your family.

Pick one. If you choose to defend somebody's honor at work and risk your job, than you are being rather reckless.

[jonhomeowner]

I'm not defending the system here.
I went to the mall with no experience and I worked hard to impress them. They liked me and I got hired. I enrolled in benefits. Any retard could have done that.
Where? What were you doing? How much did you get paid? What if they're not hiring? What if somebody can't get to a mall because they lack transportation (another factor that has been ignored here)?

I used to hitch hike and travel on trains to move around. It wasn't difficult. I'm not saying do that. I'm saying, it's fuckin possible on a budget. So what you have to lose some possessions.
Yes, it's possible. But if you have a family, it's not.

Fine Jon. It's hopeless. There's no chance jon. Nobody has ever lifted themselves off the ground and fixed their lives. It's never happened ever in the course of civilization. Nope. Never. No poor kid has ever worked through college and started his own business. No poor kid has ever gone to college.
I'm not saying that nobody has ever done it. I am, however saying, that those that have are very likely to have been LUCKY. Right place, right time. Random chance. Etc, etc.

Wow jon, where the fuck do you live?
I've lived in three major cities, and in all three of them, you couldn't live on a fast food job.

Funny. My mom worked at a bar to support 3 kids living in shitty apartments with no father. I went to school. I took economics and political science. Did you?
Yep. I sure did, and it shows. You sound like some republican mouth-piece from the way you've been talking, spouting ignorant stuff about how everybody has an equal chance in America, because it's such a great country and the such, when it comes down to luck, really.

No. You are just convinced that there is no possible way a human being in America can solve his own problems or make his life better.
I never said that. What I SAID was that it's not possible for everybody, when you seem to imply that it is.

[jonhomeowner]

The RIGHT THING. Ok. There's 2 choices here.

defending your coworkers

or

feeding on your family.

Pick one. If you choose to defend somebody's honor at work and risk your job, than you are being rather reckless.
Why? What if the manager is sexually harassing every woman there? What if there is something illegal going on that could hurt others or have a dramatic negative effect on the environment? Why not do the right thing and tell everybody what's going on? You have to make choices, yes... But if you make the choice to do the right thing and then you lose your job, then you've stood up for others. And I don't know about you, but I don't think it's a bad thing to stick up for the rights of others.

[ChrisJones]

Why? What if the manager is sexually harassing every woman there? What if there is something illegal going on that could hurt others or have a dramatic negative effect on the environment? Why not do the right thing and tell everybody what's going on? You have to make choices, yes... But if you make the choice to do the right thing and then you lose your job, then you've stood up for others. And I don't know about you, but I don't think it's a bad thing to stick up for the rights of others.

It's about sacrifice. You have 2 choices here.

You either sacrifice your pride to feed your family.

Or you sacrifice your family to satisfy your pride.

I would rather keep working a shitty job environment to feed my family, than risk losing my house.

[jonhomeowner]

It's about sacrifice. You have 2 choices here.

You either sacrifice your pride to feed your family.

Or you sacrifice your family to satisfy your pride.

I would rather keep working a shitty job environment to feed my family, than risk losing my house.
That's a really poor attitude. No wonder we live in such a shitty world filled with injustice. Nobody will take a stand, they're too afraid of the consequences.

[bunniegraves]

It's about sacrifice. You have 2 choices here.

You either sacrifice your pride to feed your family.

Or you sacrifice your family to satisfy your pride.

I would rather keep working a shitty job environment to feed my family, than risk losing my house.

just because its A job doesnt mean you have to choose to stay there, its not like you cant make a stand, cut back a little, and find a new job on par if not better than the one you left. a shitty job = resentment, resentment builds and will come out at the expense of those closest to you. i speak from personal experience here.

[DEVIN 75]

Independence doesn't mean you can just fuck people over to get what you want. That, in a way, is depending on them. You become a leech in society.

The father reference was pertaining to how it feels when somebody putting their needs ahead of others can be hurtful.

I'm not a communist. If you can't pay your bills that's your fault. If you happen to be a friend in need, well, I'm the kind of friend that will help out if I got the cash. That's called giving.

But I don't think that handouts should be institutionalized.

The geezer didn't have to cut in line.

There's no justifying that.

The lesson here is, if you let people cut you all the time and never stand up for yourself, there will always be someone in front of you bragging about what you don't have. The old man was wrong. He wasn't setting a good example for how people should act.

If you feel the need to cut people in line, be careful.

One day someone will stick out their foot and trip you.


Chris,

Now you've missed my point entirely. Your perception of this scenario is still a naive black and white utopia. Independence cannot be a borrowed or received emotion. I'm not going to pick apart every spec of your rebuttal. I believe you've read too much into a loose metaphor concerning a situation that Kingrocker experienced and took a harsh lesson from. Continue to pick away like a vulture as this doesn't affect my perception of the situations true meaning. As previously stated perhaps the geezer was a selfish dick but that is not the point. The only point was inside society self preservation is key. You can't expect strangers or co-workers to care for you beyond themselves. Your simply asking too much of "common" society. People who live outside of society have grasped that concept so why can't you? The days of villages coming together to aid those in need are over for right now. People are to busy with distractions. A majority of the American gene pool can go get stuffed for all I care. I am a giving person. I do care above the norm of most individuals I am surrounded by outside my comfort zone. I am making strides to change the environment around me daily. What have you done to warrant such an attack on a situation that you haven't experienced first hand? Do you still live at home? There's nothing wrong with that if you do. I'm just trying to grasp your perception. The communist remark again is your adoption to manipulate the extreme where it does not belong. Perhaps you should choose metaphors that aren't so cloudy and sensational.

[ChrisJones]

That's a really poor attitude. No wonder we live in such a shitty world filled with injustice. Nobody will take a stand, they're too afraid of the consequences.
If I didn't have a family to feed, then I would take a stand.

[kingrocker]

When I was in my early 20's I got a job making around 25 dollars an hour. I then got laid off. I could not find a job in that pay range so I decided to find any job I could after MONTHS went by. Only everywhere I interviewed at said I made to much money before and they didn't want to hire me because of it. Unemployment ran out and I was shit out of luck and became homeless for a while. My truck broke down and I had no money to fix it. So then I was homeless and had no transportation to get to a job even if I had one. Shortly after I found a job for 8 dollars an hour. Thank god I didn't have a family. Even if you work hard and do everything right, life will fuck you up.

[kingrocker]

Chris,

You've now you've missed my point entirely. Your perception of this scenario is still a naive black and white utopia. Independence cannot be a borrowed or received emotion. I'm not going to pick apart every spec of your rebuttal. I believe you've read too much into a loose metaphor concerning a situation that Kingrocker experienced and took a harsh lesson from. Continue to pick away like a vulture as this doesn't affect my perception of the situations true meaning. As previously stated perhaps the geezer was a selfish dick but that is not the point. The only point was inside society self preservation is key. You can't expect strangers or co-workers to care for you beyond themselves. Your simply asking too much of "common" society. People who live outside of society have grasped that concept so why can't you? Do you still live at home? There's nothing wrong with that if you do. The communist remark again is your adoption to manipulate the extreme where it does not belong. Perhaps you should choose metaphors that aren't so cloudy and sensational.


Devin, It is nice to see that someone gets what I was saying.

[ChrisJones]

Chris,

You've now you've missed my point entirely. Your perception of this scenario is still a naive black and white utopia. Independence cannot be a borrowed or received emotion. I'm not going to pick apart every spec of your rebuttal. I believe you've read too much into a loose metaphor concerning a situation that Kingrocker experienced and took a harsh lesson from. Continue to pick away like a vulture as this doesn't affect my perception of the situations true meaning. As previously stated perhaps the geezer was a selfish dick but that is not the point. The only point was inside society self preservation is key. You can't expect strangers or co-workers to care for you beyond themselves. Your simply asking too much of "common" society. People who live outside of society have grasped that concept so why can't you? Do you still live at home? There's nothing wrong with that if you do. The communist remark again is your adoption to manipulate the extreme where it does not belong. Perhaps you should choose metaphors that aren't so cloudy and sensational.
Independence is something I hold very dear to me.

Here's some background on me then...
I ran away from home when I was 15, hitch hiked around for awhile. I finished schooling on my own. I got myself a job, a car, this computer, my apartment, all of it, while my broke ass family was 2000 miles away. They never lent me any money, not once. I went from camping in the woods down the street to living here in my shabby little apartment. My friends were all junkies and scumbags and I rose above them, though I still respect them as friends that were loyal to me. In college I studied about the world. I decided I hate politics, I pursued being an artist. yeah, it meant being poor, but I chose this instead of going the other route, which was an option available to me. The shitty entry level job I took manages to cover all my bills along with income from my most amazing wife.

I made it this far with no help from anybody. I never used anybody or took advantage of people. You won't see me cutting anybody in line.

I am independent. I will fight for that.

I don't like stepping on other people's feet to get what I want. My political leaning is best described as left libertarianism. Go look it up.

[ChrisJones]

When I was in my early 20's I got a job making around 25 dollars an hour. I then got laid off. I could not find a job in that pay range so I decided to find any job I could after MONTHS went by. Only everywhere I interviewed at said I made to much money before and they didn't want to hire me because of it. Unemployment ran out and I was shit out of luck and became homeless for a while. My truck broke down and I had no money to fix it. So then I was homeless and had no transportation to get to a job even if I had one. Shortly after I found a job for 8 dollars an hour. Thank god I didn't have a family. Even if you work hard and do everything right, life will fuck you up.

and you got back on your feet.

Did the government help you or did you come back on your own?

[ChrisJones]

haha jon

democrats call me anarchist

anarchists call me republican

republicans call me socialist

socialists call me a fascist

I don't know what fascists call me, I've never met one.

its a perfect circle...so are you an anarchist?

[ChrisJones]

That's a really poor attitude. No wonder we live in such a shitty world filled with injustice. Nobody will take a stand, they're too afraid of the consequences.

You would let your children go hungry because you chose to "take a stand" and got yourself fired.

thats sickness



do me a favor and don't have kids

[jonhomeowner]

You would let your children go hungry because you chose to "take a stand" and got yourself fired.

thats sickness

do me a favor and don't have kids
My kids would never go hungry. If I lost my job, I could easily feed them via welfare and all of that. The one thing I'd never have to worry about is my kids eating. And if it came down to it, I could give them to child services.

I believe in taking a stand gainst tyranny in all forms, especially that which is systematic.

[jonhomeowner]

haha jon

democrats call me anarchist

anarchists call me republican

republicans call me socialist

socialists call me a fascist

I don't know what fascists call me, I've never met one.

its a perfect circle...so are you an anarchist?
I called you a fascist before, remember?

So I guess I'm a socialist-anarchist, then, eh?

[ChrisJones]

welfare?

So a democratic assembly takes money through taxes and legal mechanisms from hard working people and gives it to nonworking or handicapped citizens. \

Isn't that called "theft of property"?

You are feeding into this system of taxation by "standing against tyranny"

lol

[ChrisJones]

I called you a fascist before, remember?

So I guess I'm a socialist-anarchist, then, eh?
Are you?

I'd actually prefer that you were.

[ChrisJones]

"Most anarchists believe that while social welfare gives a certain level of independecy from the market and individual capitalists, it creates dependence to the state, which is the institution that, according to this view, supports and protects capitalism in the first place." -Chomsky

[jonhomeowner]

welfare?

So a democratic assembly takes money through taxes and legal mechanisms from hard working people and gives it to nonworking or handicapped citizens.
What's wrong with giving to handicapped citizens, or those that cannot work, or those that need help now and again? The fact that you say "hard working people" is absurd, since the highest-taxed people are the richest, who are usually the people that work the least. There's only so much money anybody should have, because beyond a certain amount, it becomes absurd. Some people propose "crazy" tax policies where nobody will ever make more than $100,000 a year. I don't necessarily agree with those ideas, but I don't see what would be so bad about them. Who really needs more than $100,000 a year? Nobody.

Isn't that called "theft of property"?
Property is theft.

You are feeding into this system of taxation by "standing against tyranny"
So? I don't consider a system of taxation "tyranny", as some of the healthiest places to live are the most heavily taxed.

[jonhomeowner]

ChrisJones, I'm beginning to think that this isn't the site for you. May I redirect you to one that suits you better?

http://conservativepunk.com
or
http://gopunk.com

[ChrisJones]

What's wrong with giving to handicapped citizens, or those that cannot work, or those that need help now and again? The fact that you say "hard working people" is absurd, since the highest-taxed people are the richest, who are usually the people that work the least. There's only so much money anybody should have, because beyond a certain amount, it becomes absurd. Some people propose "crazy" tax policies where nobody will ever make more than $100,000 a year. I don't necessarily agree with those ideas, but I don't see what would be so bad about them. Who really needs more than $100,000 a year? Nobody.
I won't support a government that steals property from it's citizens. If you capped the salary people could make, they would rise as one and slay you. Underground crime would explode, money laundering schemes, it would be madness. No way. That's crazy and not fair at all. You make a general statement saying that wealthy people don't work. That's called success in capitalism(as shitty as capitalism is). When you are successful at your business you hire people to work for you. duh. You earned it.


Property is theft.

So if you work for your money, you are stealing it? I'm not following this logic.

So? I don't consider a system of taxation "tyranny", as some of the healthiest places to live are the most heavily taxed.
You just complained about how a raise in taxes can devastate families. Is your opinion changing? Do you see taxation as a necessary evil? Do these "healthy places" include your inner city schools? laid off workers?

[ChrisJones]

ChrisJones, I'm beginning to think that this isn't the site for you. May I redirect you to one that suits you better?

http://conservativepunk.com
or
http://gopunk.com

You dumbass. Your insults are becoming cheaper and cheaper.

[jonhomeowner]

That's called success in capitalism(as shitty as capitalism is). When you are successful at your business you hire people to work for you. duh. You earned it.
It's called exploitation.

So if you work for your money, you are stealing it? I'm not following this logic.
You can't read, it's okay.

You just complained about how a raise in taxes can devastate families.
Low-income families, you idiot.

Is your opinion changing? Do you see taxation as a necessary evil? Do these "healthy places" include your inner city schools? laid off workers?
No, these "healthy places" have pretty low unemployment rates and decent schools, or I wouldn't call them "healthy".

[jonhomeowner]

You dumbass. Your insults are becoming cheaper and cheaper.
I'm not insulting you, I'm stating fact.

This is the same rhetoric the moderator of conservativepunk has fed me in the past. "Anybody can succeed, capitalism is great like that. Anybody that doesn't is lazy. Taxes are terrible! People should pay for everything themselves! Welfare is awful and it doesn't help anybody, it just creates lazy people!"

You sound just like him, really.

[ChrisJones]

It's called exploitation.
Exploitation. are you joking? In your Utopian society, people are going to want to get ahead of one another and they are going to find a way to do it.

You can't read, it's okay.

You are calling property theft. Technically sure, you are taking it from mother earth. Money being property how is earning money theft?


Low-income families, you idiot.

You mean the families of the workers that "choose" not to "exploit". But aren't they helping the "exploiters" by working for them in the first place?


No, these "healthy places" have pretty low unemployment rates and decent schools, or I wouldn't call them "healthy".
So the 3 cities you have lived in weren't healthy?

[jonhomeowner]

Exploitation. are you joking? In your Utopian society, people are going to want to get ahead of one another and they are going to find a way to do it.
Doesn't mean mass-exploitation will be the way of it.

You are calling property theft. Technically sure, you are taking it from mother earth. Money being property how is earning money theft?
Because it's so-often gotten through exploitation.

You mean the families of the workers that "choose" not to "exploit". But aren't they helping the "exploiters" by working for them in the first place?
Unfortunately, we live in a system where you are forced to work somewhere, and thus people are often forced to be exploited.

You said it yourself.

So the 3 cities you have lived in weren't healthy?
I wasn't talking about cities. I was talking about countries.

[ChrisJones]

I'm not insulting you, I'm stating fact.

This is the same rhetoric the moderator of conservativepunk has fed me in the past. "Anybody can succeed, capitalism is great like that. Anybody that doesn't is lazy. Taxes are terrible! People should pay for everything themselves! Welfare is awful and it doesn't help anybody, it just creates lazy people!"

You sound just like him, really.
People can succeed, not just because of democracy and capitalism. You can do a million things besides run a business or "exploit" as you call it.

And it is a fact, lazy people are screwed no matter what type of society they live in. This isn't particular to capitalism.

Taxes are required to pay for social services such as public education, police/fire, public servants, health care(hopefully one day), national defense...etc.

Welfare, ok I will partially agree. I believe that medical reasons are big reason people stop working and take up welfare. A universal health plan should include a provision to help those that cannot work.

I do believe the right to the basic necessities of life in a prosperous society is a human right, and people should not be allowed to suffer through lack of provision or as you call it "privilege". Also people with low incomes do not need to resort to crime to stay alive, thus reducing the crime rate.

jon the fuckin humanitarian. who woulda thought? I'm not going to go along with your idea of feeding every human being free food and paying people to be citizens while I go out and work my ass off contributing. No way. The economy would crumble.

Right wing? Are you nuts?
I only justify wars that defend key allies or the homeland. A woman has a right to choose. Gay couples should have same rights as hetero. Guns should be strictly regulated, no assault weapons please. The war on drugs is a joke, drugs should be legal. Re organize the education system. Immigrants shall be given work passes. Universal health care including provisions for the the disabled should be presented.

I believe that all people deserve a level of great personal freedom and ownership of property they earned through work. The only barriers are ones that block rights that would infringe on another's freedoms.

I do not believe "democracy" is essential to protecting rights and freedoms. The government powers should be severely limited.

Living right now with these thugs in office abusing their power convincing you that "freedom" and "democracy" are conservative words, when they are promoting anything but those ideals. This is theft. No, democracy is not the same as liberty. All too often, building "democracy" has been used as a justification for destroying freedom.
To achieve a free and peaceful world, we must restore freedom and individual liberty, not democracy.

Still think I'm right wing?

[DEVIN 75]

The RIGHT THING. Ok. There's 2 choices here.

defending your coworkers

or

feeding on your family.

Pick one. If you choose to defend somebody's honor at work and risk your job, than you are being rather reckless.

You should have reviewed sexual harassment and inclusion tactics in the workplace before typing this. This statement makes you sound heartless, callous and cold to people who may have communication barriers or are constantly abused. I presume there is no room for a Norma Jean in your workplace if you ever find yourself under the thumb of others.

[DEVIN 75]

It's about sacrifice. You have 2 choices here.

You either sacrifice your pride to feed your family.

Or you sacrifice your family to satisfy your pride.

I would rather keep working a shitty job environment to feed my family, than risk losing my house.

What are you talking about pride for? You say people should care for others and now your talking about a fuck everybody but me and my own ethic. Are you aware the fodder you've spouted off has taken a 180 degree turn. Your statements have now indulged in becoming somewhat borderline hypocritical. Welcome to the real world where some people out there have had more obstacles and hardships to overcome than you Chris. The world is imperfect deal with it. Just for your literal digestion some of us out there did overcome hard times and went to school, work 48 hour jobs and still manage to maintain a single income household. You may need to step off that self righteous pedestal someday before your own words strangle you.

[ChrisJones]

Ok

this is like my political science debates all over again. Except you all share one side and I share another.

What are you talking about pride for? You say people should care for others and now your talking about a fuck everybody but me and my own ethic.
No, not me, I would do it in a heartbeat if I didn't have mouths to feed that depended on my. My family. If I was selfish and only thinking of myself, than I would blow the whistle and work to satisfy my pride, without considering my loved ones at home.

So basically you would voluntarily fuck over your family because you see something wrong and you're the hero to fix it. Chances are whatever is wrong is going on in a million workplaces a day. Who made you the hero? Do you honestly think your small lone voice is going to change anything?

Anybody on a mission to save the world that hurts those close to them, is well, delusional. Especially when they act alone without support from others.

Your family should be your number one priority. They are your pride. Not your coworkers. Your legacy will be your children.

If you truly loved them you would do what it takes to take care of them. I would bite the bullet to feed them. I would take a bullet to feed them. If I had to witness social injustice, despite my political beliefs, I would still choose to feed them.

And if you don't love them, than go ahead, lose your job.

Now that to me is selfish.

Are you aware the fodder you've spouted off has taken a 180 degree turn. Your statements have now indulged in becoming somewhat borderline hypocritical. Welcome to the real world where some people out there have had more obstacles and hardships to overcome than you Chris.

I'm painfully aware of how terrible the world is. The only 180 degree turn I can think of is my position on social welfare wavering a little. I haven't quite nailed that one down.

And unlike 90 percent of the human population, I can admit mistakes.

The world is imperfect deal with it.
I know it's imperfect. No. I won't deal with. I want things to be better. Maybe you don't, but I do. It starts with waking people up. Waking people up to their problems and facing reality is what I preach. There will be no action to make things better until people realize that things can be better and it's within their grasp.

Now wait a minute, aren't you the guy that just said "take a stand in the workplace?"

Well using your own words "the world is imperfect, deal with it"

It seems like I'm the guy that would take any stand before you would.

Just for your literal digestion some of us out there did overcome hard times and went to school, work 48 hour jobs and still manage to maintain a single income household.
I never doubted that my man.

You may need to step off that self righteous pedestal someday before your own words strangle you.

Pedestal? Who are you talking to?

Jonhomeowner is the reigning pedestal champ. I'm just a random asshole.

Unfortunately I'm getting this idea you have all given up on any system of government that doesn't directly kiss your ass. Well cry me a river.

[ChrisJones]

You should have reviewed sexual harassment and inclusion tactics in the workplace before typing this. This statement makes you sound heartless, callous and cold to people who may have communication barriers or are constantly abused. I presume there is no room for a Norma Jean in your workplace if you ever find yourself under the thumb of others.

There are ways to blow the whistle without losing your job.

Most workplaces have anonymous 1800 numbers to call corporate and report stuff like this on an anonymous basis.

[ChrisJones]

Property is theft.

Then whose computer are you on?
Sell all of your belongings and move into the woods. Anything less, and you are a hypocrite.

So? I don't consider a system of taxation "tyranny", as some of the healthiest places to live are the most heavily taxed.
So are some of the worst.

Like the united states colonies? Like british ruled India? Like Nazi germany? Like cuba?

[bunniegraves]

welfare?

So a democratic assembly takes money through taxes and legal mechanisms from hard working people and gives it to nonworking or handicapped citizens. \

Isn't that called "theft of property"?

You are feeding into this system of taxation by "standing against tyranny"

lol

cripples rule.

[ChrisJones]

cripples rule.
I support a universal healthcare that handles certain financial needs of the handicapped. Propose to me a competent welfare program for the handicapped and I might give leeway here.

[jonhomeowner]

Then whose computer are you on?
One that I would share with anyone that wants to use it.

Sell all of your belongings and move into the woods. Anything less, and you are a hypocrite.
Not really.

I didn't identify what I consider property. I could have been talking about the overall idea of property, or I could have been referring to one particular part of it - land.

So are some of the worst.
Yes, but that's easy to see, because those places feed their taxes directly to a greedy leader, and not back to the people.

Huge difference, Einstein.

[jonhomeowner]

cripples rule.
I was waiting for you to buzz in on this. I figured you'd have more to say, but oh well.

[DEVIN 75]

Ok

this is like my political science debates all over again. Except you all share one side and I share another.


No, not me, I would do it in a heartbeat if I didn't have mouths to feed that depended on my. My family. If I was selfish and only thinking of myself, than I would blow the whistle and work to satisfy my pride, without considering my loved ones at home.

So basically you would voluntarily fuck over your family because you see something wrong and you're the hero to fix it. Chances are whatever is wrong is going on in a million workplaces a day. Who made you the hero? Do you honestly think your small lone voice is going to change anything?

Anybody on a mission to save the world that hurts those close to them, is well, delusional. Especially when they act alone without support from others.

Your family should be your number one priority. They are your pride. Not your coworkers. Your legacy will be your children.

If you truly loved them you would do what it takes to take care of them. I would bite the bullet to feed them. I would take a bullet to feed them. If I had to witness social injustice, despite my political beliefs, I would still choose to feed them.

And if you don't love them, than go ahead, lose your job.

Now that to me is selfish.



I'm painfully aware of how terrible the world is. The only 180 degree turn I can think of is my position on social welfare wavering a little. I haven't quite nailed that one down.

And unlike 90 percent of the human population, I can admit mistakes.


I know it's imperfect. No. I won't deal with. I want things to be better. Maybe you don't, but I do. It starts with waking people up. Waking people up to their problems and facing reality is what I preach. There will be no action to make things better until people realize that things can be better and it's within their grasp.

Now wait a minute, aren't you the guy that just said "take a stand in the workplace?"

Well using your own words "the world is imperfect, deal with it"

It seems like I'm the guy that would take any stand before you would.

I never doubted that my man.



Pedestal? Who are you talking to?

Jonhomeowner is the reigning pedestal champ. I'm just a random asshole.

Unfortunately I'm getting this idea you have all given up on any system of government that doesn't directly kiss your ass. Well cry me a river.


Forget it, your still not getting it. You'll figure out what I'm trying to say one day when your probably older I guess. Pride has nothing to do when making a conscious decision between right and wrong. Your ethics on this area seem maligned and muddy. Nobody said anything about hurting those close to us to run off and change the world. You have that delusion about my statement and that's never what I said. I am the one that said sometimes you have to save yourself first before trying to change the world. Yourself of course includes your family. Read between the lines your too reactionary before its necessary. You haven't even dealt with the fact with what if your friend died on the job from rampant corporate negligence. You haven't mentioned that a family would have an open discussion on what they should or can do together if action needs to be taken. I was fortunate enough to become part of a family that consisted of broken families at a young age. From my experiences I've learned you will not act alone or make decisions alone that affect everyone you care about. It wasn't done for control it was done to avoid tragic missteps and mistakes. It sounds like your environment involves a history of unpredictable choices without consultation that would affect your family. Nobody blows a whistle because they want to be a glory whore. They make the call because they are fighting for right the best way they can. From your loose descriptions above you would have left us all without labour representation, safety equipment, lock out rules and guidelines, and the basic freedom from harm in the workplace. It sounds like you've never worked in a factory or assembly workplace. Here is a hypothetical question for you. If you had a great job where you worked your way up through the ranks over 10 years, a wife and three kids with one in college, a brand new $190,000 spread and three new cars. You knew in the factory you worked in as a technician there were chemical elements that were carcinogenic released in the air inside the plant. Your also aware of several presses that are defective, damaged and in need of maintenance. The company continues to ignore your concerns for breather masks and new equipment for your employees of which 30% cannot speak english. Wouldn't you speak with your family before acting?

You would be selfish for continuously profiting of the backs and skeletons of the dead. Knowingly allowing people to be hurt, maimed and killed is selfish.

Your responses are too black and white.

Those 1-800 lines from personal experience will work also to figure out who you are. They are actually coerced in training to gather information. To think calling an inner corporate number and believe on faith that something will change is just naive. A coworker of mine was pinched within a week once. I worked for a company that instead of reusing Styrofoam we threw it away every week. It bothered me I was miserable when the subject arose with family, coworkers and friends. Numerous attempts with contacting all possible corporate schlocks failed, after consulting my family who saw my concern I did blow the whistle. Nothing changed however I was asked to move operating locations. I wasn't a complete nonce with that company and the wanted to harvest my ideas while they felt I was still a benefit to them. Well Chris looks like the 1-800 number is just another silencing system to me in most cases.

I've taken more stands than you can comprehend. I stand up daily for what I believe and have stood up daily for the benefit of others for several years obviously. A small part of that is my compassion for those who can't defend themselves against workplace and corporate tyranny. What have you done? What have you attempted to change? Who do you pass information with on a daily basis? I think the reason you can't grasp what I've said is because you haven't been in a situation where you had to make a choice that could save someones life or health and I have.

You can't always turn your back. It's not easy to slim down your life and find a lesser paying job. I honestly don't think this is an area you carry water in because you haven't experienced it first hand. Your opinions are your own.

[ChrisJones]

Devin, I like you and totally respect you.

I don't follow how asking for gas masks can get you fired, but job atmospheres are different everywhere you go.

Before you blew this whistle wouldn't it be responsible to be sure you had another job lined up? If you moved up the ranks with 10 years experience, than you are quite qualified to work other places.

I speak from my emotions, not thinking things through, as you can tell. So
Am I a horrible person because my first instinct is my family?

You're right I never had a real family growing up. That's why it's so important to me now.

Are you convinced all corporations are evil? Is there not one good company that takes care of it's employees?

And finally, I've never came across a situation where a company was committing severe atrocities aganst it's employees, so no I've never helped in that way.
Basically it depends on the situation and a whole lot of things. If corporate negligence caused a death of a coworker, I won't just sit on the fence obviously, that's not my style. But you have to be talking about severe injustice being done(like worker safety) for me to risk losing a nice job like that. And I wouldn't recklessly quit or be fired without at least putting a resume out there. You have to think about the consequences of your actions and plan ahead. Is that not a sign of maturity?

[DEVIN 75]

Devin, I like you and totally respect you.

I don't follow how asking for gas masks can get you fired, but job atmospheres are different everywhere you go.

Before you blew this whistle wouldn't it be responsible to be sure you had another job lined up? If you moved up the ranks with 10 years experience, than you are quite qualified to work other places.

I speak from my emotions, not thinking things through, as you can tell. So
Am I a horrible person because my first instinct is my family?

You're right I never had a real family growing up. That's why it's so important to me now.

Are you convinced all corporations are evil? Is there not one good company that takes care of it's employees?

And finally, I've never came across a situation where a company was committing severe atrocities aganst it's employees, so no I've never helped in that way.
Basically it depends on the situation and a whole lot of things. If corporate negligence caused a death of a coworker, I won't just sit on the fence obviously, that's not my style. But you have to be talking about severe injustice being done(like worker safety) for me to risk losing a nice job like that. And I wouldn't recklessly quit or be fired without at least putting a resume out there. You have to think about the consequences of your actions and plan ahead. Is that not a sign of maturity?

So you've been agreeing with me but jabbing anecdotes this whole time?

I always have at least 3 back up plans for every situation in life. Being a product of the American Judicial system will do that to you. I never stop thinking of entrance and exit strategies.

Anyone who faults someone for thinking of their families welfare is an asshole!

Business' can be good, Corporations and Incorporated structures lose their grasp of humane understanding of the clones and worker bees in most business environments. Normally HR departments are created to combat this issue however are still internally controlled and maintained from within.

I'm not a vegetarian so this has no covert agenda. For current atrocities look at "most" poultry and meat plants in your own back yard.

Smithfields processing plants come to mind right at the gate. Do some homework on it. Certain facilities as well as their treatment of labour workers should apall you. This is happening now and not in a text book.

Again as stated from before I always have an exit strategy.

[ChrisJones]

After consulting a friend, I just heard about a national labor law that states you can sue any company that fires you for reporting a safety violation. It's designed primarily for mining and factory workers.
Won't a company think twice before firing you if they know a law like that is on the books?

Now this sounds like a sweet exit strategy.

When I'm home I will post the link if you insist on debating this one.

[oldsklgrl]

After consulting a friend, I just heard about a national labor law that states you can sue any company that fires you for reporting a safety violation. It's designed primarily for mining and factory workers.
Won't a company think twice before firing you if they know a law like that is on the books?

Now this sounds like a sweet exit strategy.

When I'm home I will post the link if you insist on debating this one.

One thing I have learned in all my legal studies is there is a "loop hole" for almost every situation. Therefore it is not a good back up plan.

[jonhomeowner]

After consulting a friend, I just heard about a national labor law that states you can sue any company that fires you for reporting a safety violation. It's designed primarily for mining and factory workers.
Won't a company think twice before firing you if they know a law like that is on the books?
No, because you have to prove that's why they fired you. They could make up anything.

This is why affirmative action exists - because companies aren't allowed to discriminate based on race, gender, etc... But they can simply claim "Oh, well, I didn't hire that person because they weren't good enough," and get away with it.

It's an unenforceable law, because one has to prove they were fired for blowing the whistle.

[ChrisJones]

Get a lawyer on a contingincy fee. State your case to the labor board. And get OSHA involved.

A lot of companies won't want to go to court and will settle. Unless the company can prove you are a complete jack off at work they won't want to face a jury. Juries traditionally destroy corporations in favor of the the underdog workers. But your chances are quite good at winning the case before you ever see a courtroom.



Chime in oldskool girl with your thoughts

[oldsklgrl]

Get a lawyer on a contingincy fee. State your case to the labor board. And get OSHA involved.

A lot of companies won't want to go to court and will settle. Unless the company can prove you are a complete jack off at work they won't want to face a jury. Juries traditionally destroy corporations in favor of the the underdog workers. But your chances are quite good at winning the case before you ever see a courtroom.



Chime in oldskool girl with your thoughts

OK :)

Actually the court system favors the corporation (which I think sucks). Not to mention the corps have high powered attorneys that have nothing better to do than prepare for these scenarios in advance. OSHA, being a federal organization, will investigate and may write a report, but they will not work as witness for the prosecution because their federal affiliation. One would be better served to go to ACLU or if it were a union job to the hall for representation. The best bet would be the ACLU...it's an acronym that can instill fear in corporate attorney.

[BEERnBRATWURST]

Get a lawyer on a contingincy fee. State your case to the labor board. And get OSHA involved.

A lot of companies won't want to go to court and will settle. Unless the company can prove you are a complete jack off at work they won't want to face a jury. Juries traditionally destroy corporations in favor of the the underdog workers. But your chances are quite good at winning the case before you ever see a courtroom.



Chime in oldskool girl with your thoughts

Your one lawyer vs. their team of highly paid lawyers......there will be no settling out of court....that's almost the same as an admission of guilt.

[ChrisJones]

Your one lawyer vs. their team of highly paid lawyers......there will be no settling out of court....that's almost the same as an admission of guilt.

You can get an entire experienced law firm on a contingency fee you can do damage.

In 1996, the stats of around 500 Individuals vs Business cases taken from the 75 largest counties in the US.

Looking at employment discrimination cases. In cases where the businesses were defendants, the plaintiffs won 63 percent of the cases.

In the "other employment dispute" cases it was 66 percent of cases awarded to plaintiffs.

The average settlement dollar amount for the jury cases was around 50 times more than the average out of court settlement.

All this information available here:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/ctcvlc96.pdf

and in 2001 things were even worse for businesses winnning trials, they lost 74 percent of jury trials, very bad with 39 percent of all plaintiff wins amounting over $250,000 each

again this is for individuals vs business(non class action)
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/ctcvlc01.pdf

From the numbers your chances of winning are better than the business.

Again provided they can't prove you were a shithead when you were employed.

[oldsklgrl]

Chris,

I'm too tired to go read the sites...Are those all the cases or just the ones that went to trial? I'm only guessing; but I have a feeling if you include the suits that were filed the statistics would go down.

(PS-I'm referring to initial filings)

[ChrisJones]

It's all the cases where there was some sort of outcome in that year.

The data includes both trials and out of court settlements.

Yeah it's 25 pages of goodness.