Capital Punishment...

[Noodlesflyhigh]

There have been many arguments against Capital Punishment, as well as arguments for it. I know that many of you hate to read, so I'll warn you ahead of time this will be a long post.

Here are my personal reasons why I am for capital punishment:

Incapacitation of the criminal.
Capital punishment permanently removes the worst criminals from society and should prove much cheaper and safer for the rest of us than long term or permanent incarceration. It is self evident that dead criminals cannot commit any further crimes, either within prison or after escaping or being released from it.

Cost.
Money is not an inexhaustible commodity and the state may very well better spend our (limited) resources on the old, the young and the sick etc., rather than on the long term imprisonment of murderers, rapists, etc.
Anti-capital punishment campaigners in America cite the higher cost of executing someone over life in prison, but this (whilst true for America) has to do with the endless appeals and delays in carrying out death sentences that are allowed under the American legal system where the average time spent on death row is over 11 years. In Britain in the 20th century, the average time in the condemned cell was from 3 to 8 weeks and there was only one appeal.

Retribution.
Execution is a very real punishment, rather than some form of "rehabilitative" treatment, the criminal is made to suffer in proportion to the offence. Although, whether there is a place in a modern society for the old fashioned principal of "lex talens" (an eye for an eye), is a matter of personal opinion. Retribution is seen by many as an acceptable reason for the death penalty by most.

Deterrence.
Does the death penalty deter? It is hard to prove one way or the other because in most retentionist countries the number of people actually executed per year (as compared to those sentenced to death) is usually a very small proportion. It would, however, seem that in those countries (e.g. Singapore) which almost always carry out death sentences, there is generally far less serious crime. This tends to indicate that the death penalty is a deterrent, but only where execution is an absolute certainty.
Anti-death penalty campaigners always argue that death is not a deterrent and usually site studies based upon American states to prove their point. This is, in my view, flawed and probably chosen to be deliberately misleading. Let us examine the situation in 3 countries.

Britain.
The rates for unlawful killings in Britain have more than doubled since abolition of capital punishment in 1964 from 0.68 per 100,000 of the population to 1 .42 per 100,000. Home Office figures show around unlawful killings 300 in 1964, which rose to 565 in 1994 and 833 in 2004. The principal methods of homicide were fights involving fists and feet, poisoning, strangling, firearms and cutting by glass or a broken bottle. 72% of the victims were male with young men being most at risk. Convictions for the actual crime of murder (as against manslaughter and other unlawful killings) have been rising inexorably. Between 1900 and 1965 they ran at an average of 29 per year. There were 57 in 1965 – the first year of abolition. Ten years later the total for the year was 107 which rose to 173 by 1985 and 214 in 1995. The figure for 2005 is 280. There have been 71 murders committed by people who have been released after serving "life sentences" in the period between 1965 and 1998 according to Home Office statistics. Some 6,300 people are currently serving sentences of “life in prison” for murder.
Statistics were kept for the 5 years that capital punishment was suspended in Britain (1965-1969) and these showed a 125% rise in murders that would have attracted a death sentence.

America.
In most states, other than Texas, the number of executions as compared to death sentences and murders is infinitesimally small. Of the 598 executions carried out in the whole of the USA from 1977 to the end of 1999, Texas accounts for 199 or 33%.
Interestingly, the murder rate in the U.S. dropped from 24,562 in 1993 to 18,209 in 1997, the lowest for years (a 26% reduction) - during a period of increased use of the death penalty. 311 (62%) of the 500 executions have been carried out in this period. The number of murders in 2003 was about 15,600.
America still had 5 times as many murders per head of population as did Britain in 1997 whilst Singapore had 15 times fewer murders per head of population than Britain. How can one account for this? There are obvious cultural differences between the 3 countries although all are modern and prosperous.
It is dangerously simplistic to say that the rise in executions is the only factor in the reduction of homicides in America. There has been a general trend to a more punitive society, (e.g. the "three strikes and your out" law) over this period and cities such as New York claim great success in reducing crime rates through the use of "zero tolerance" policing policies. But otherwise, there has been political and economic stability over the period and no obvious social changes. Improvements in medical techniques have also saved many potential deaths.

Singapore.
Singapore always carries out death sentences where the appeal has been turned down, so its population knows precisely what will happen to them if they are convicted of murder or drug trafficking - is this concept deeply embedded into the sub-consciousness of most of its people, acting as an effective deterrent?
In 1995, Singapore hanged an unusually large number of 7 murderers with 4 in 1996, 3 in 1997 and only one in 1998 rising to 6 in 1999 (3 for the same murder). Singapore takes an equally hard line on all other forms of crime with stiff on the spot fines for trivial offences such as dropping litter and chewing gum in the street, caning for males between 18 and 50 for a wide variety of offences, and rigorous imprisonment for all serious crimes.

Hopefully some of you will have enough patience to read these reasons, and come up with your own opinions.

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

[kingrocker]

I gree, I am for the death penalty. I pay enough in tax dollars. Lets just take care of it the old fahion way. With a good beheading

[Mr_Jude]

Anti-capital punishment campaigners in America cite the higher cost of executing someone over life in prison, but this (whilst true for America) has to do with the endless appeals and delays in carrying out death sentences that are allowed under the American legal system where the average time spent on death row is over 11 years. In Britain in the 20th century, the average time in the condemned cell was from 3 to 8 weeks and there was only one appeal.

And even with all of those appeals, they sometimes execute innocent people.

Hmm. Problems? Yes.

There are no arguments for capital punishment that can trump the fact that sometimes, innocent people are put to death. We cannot have a system that allows for the death of innocent people. Until our justice system is 100% perfect, and innocent people never even get charged with a crime, there should be no capital punishment.

The end.

[Noodlesflyhigh]

Awwww c'mon...it's just a little shot :p.

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

[ThePope]

I agree with jude.

What we really need to do to save the taxpayers' money is end the drug war, once we save that 30 billion, we can more than afford to not execute people. Also, the US is the only industrialized nation that still uses the death penalty, it's only us and a bunch of third world dictatorships and theocracies.

[ThePope]

also I thought this was going to be about the band capital punishment

[Noodlesflyhigh]

I agree with jude.

What we really need to do to save the taxpayers' money is end the drug war, once we save that 30 billion, we can more than afford to not execute people. Also, the US is the only industrialized nation that still uses the death penalty, it's only us and a bunch of third world dictatorships and theocracies.

Did you read that entire post? The statistics, everything? I think you will change your mind once you read the entire thing.

There will be more murders if we take the death penalty out of place, plain, and simple. Also, there will be far more innocent deaths from murder, than there will be innocent people that are executed.

Allow me to give you an example of someone...you tell me if they deserve to die...

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

[ThePope]

I read the whole post, and still am against it because it is likely that innocent people will be executed

[Noodlesflyhigh]

There was a man in the 1800's named Albert Fish, he's referred to as "The Real Hannibal Lecter". This man was a cannibal, and was obviously very disturbed...

He went to a single mother's home asking if her son could start to work on his farm, he did this so he could check out her son. When she agreed, he suddenly saw her youngest daughter. Albert asked the young girl's mother if he could take her to his niece's birthday part, and she never came back.

This letter was received from Albert about a year later (these are exact words, I know it's a long letter...but please read):

My dear Mrs. Budd,

In 1894 a friend of mine shipped as a deck hand on the Steamer Tacoma, Capt. John Davis. They sailed from San Francisco for Hong Kong China. On arriving there he and two others went ashore and got drunk. When they returned the boat was gone.


At that time there was famine in China. Meat of any kind was from $1 to 3 Dollars a pound. So great was the suffering among the very poor that all children under 12 were sold for food in order to keep others from starving. A boy or girl under 14 was not safe in the street. You could go in any shop and ask for steak -- chops -- or stew meat. Part of the naked body of a boy or girl would be brought out and just what you wanted cut from it. A boy or girls behind which is the sweetest part of the body and sold as veal cutlet brought the highest price.

John staid there so long he acquired a taste for human flesh. On his return to N.Y. he stole two boys one 7 one 11. Took them to his home stripped them naked tied them in a closet. Then burned everything they had on. Several times every day and night he spanked them -- tortured them -- to make their meat good and tender.

First he killed the 11 year old boy, because he had the fattest ass and of course the most meat on it. Every part of his body was Cooked and eaten except the head -- bones and guts. He was Roasted in the oven (all of his ass), boiled, broiled, fried and stewed. The little boy was next, went the same way. At that time, I was living at 409 E 100 st., near -- right side. He told me so often how good Human flesh was I made up my mind to taste it.

On Sunday June the 3 --1928 I called on you at 406 W 15 St. Brought you pot cheese -- strawberries. We had lunch. Grace sat in my lap and kissed me. I made up my mind to eat her.

On the pretense of taking her to a party. You said Yes she could go. I took her to an empty house in Westchester I had already picked out. When we got there, I told her to remain outside. She picked wildflowers. I went upstairs and stripped all my clothes off. I knew if I did not I would get her blood on them.

When all was ready I went to the window and called her. Then I hid in a closet until she was in the room. When she saw me all naked she began to cry and tried to run down the stairs. I grabbed her and she said she would tell her mamma.

First I stripped her naked. How she did kick -- bite and scratch. I choked her to death, then cut her in small pieces so I could take my meat to my rooms. Cook and eat it. How sweet and tender her little ass was roasted in the oven. It took me 9 days to eat her entire body. I did not fuck her tho I could of had I wished. She died a virgin."

Fucking disgusting...


Fish thanked the judge for his sentence of death by electrocution. On January 16, 1936, Albert Fish was executed...may he finally be in peace from the torment he caused himself.

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

[ThePope]

I didn't read that whole post, but I know the story of Albert Fish and yes, there are certainly sick sadistic bastards out there but that doesn't mean innocent people won't be executed if we have the death penatly.

[citybabylissarage]

Anti-capital punishment campaigners in America cite the higher cost of executing someone over life in prison, but this (whilst true for America) has to do with the endless appeals and delays in carrying out death sentences that are allowed under the American legal system where the average time spent on death row is over 11 years. In Britain in the 20th century, the average time in the condemned cell was from 3 to 8 weeks and there was only one appeal.

And even with all of those appeals, they sometimes execute innocent people.

Hmm. Problems? Yes.

There are no arguments for capital punishment that can trump the fact that sometimes, innocent people are put to death. We cannot have a system that allows for the death of innocent people. Until our justice system is 100% perfect, and innocent people never even get charged with a crime, there should be no capital punishment.

The end.


Actually, the chances of an innocent person getting the needle are slim to none, even when someone gets the penalty, it takes seven or eight years before it's actually done. Thats plenty of time to find and bring in new evidence.


Also, the shot is apparently running at about 2 bucks a shot? It might be more, but I know that the shot itself is less than ten bucks a pop. A lot of times the cost comes from having to use legal aid provided for you, I believe.

Yeah.

I live about 5 minutes away from death row in Huntsville, Texas during the school year. :D

[Asswipe]

China, nasty

[Noodlesflyhigh]

Actually, the chances of an innocent person getting the needle are slim to none, even when someone gets the penalty, it takes seven or eight years before it's actually done. Thats plenty of time to find and bring in new evidence.


Also, the shot is apparently running at about 2 bucks a shot? It might be more, but I know that the shot itself is less than ten bucks a pop. A lot of times the cost comes from having to use legal aid provided for you, I believe.

Yeah.

I live about 5 minutes away from death row in Huntsville, Texas during the school year. :D

Even if 1 in 100,000 are innocent, I feel that it would still be worth it. I would give my life so fast knowing that 100,000 cold blooded murderers are going along with me.

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

[citybabylissarage]

Even if 1 in 100,000 are innocent, I feel that it would still be worth it. I would give my life so fast knowing that 100,000 cold blooded murderers are going along with me.

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

It takes anywhere from 7 to like.. 20 years before the actual execution.

Sorry, but if you can't prove someones innocence in 7 years, it's more than likely they're not innocent.

[Noodlesflyhigh]

Okay...I'm agreeing with you...

Previously I was simply stating that even if that were the statistics, I would still be for capital punishment. Also, I was saying I would give my life knowing that 100,000 cold blooded murders are going with me...

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

[Fukface82]

Noodles I think your argument was presented very well and I agree with you and Lissa.

I've had many conversations about the death penalty. I've yet to change my stance. I agree with many anti-death penalty enthusiasts that there is no court system on this planet that is infallible. Maybe innocent people could be put to death and have been......but it's likely to occur extremely rarely. It takes a lot and I mean A LOT just to get someone behind bars. I have many friends in law enforcement and the judicial system that will tell you how much painstaking work it takes to catch people and especially murderers, rapists, and serial killers. Beyond that I don't think we should pay for them to be alive period. No fucking medical, dental, education, food, any of that shit. And guess what the way the statistics that noodles put out there the numbers of murders would go down. The amount of people that would be getting 86'd by injection would be far less than those getting murdered. If I were to pick the lesser of two evils then I would pick a few wrongly condemned people dieing over hundreds of people dieing.

[Mr_Jude]

It takes anywhere from 7 to like.. 20 years before the actual execution.

Sorry, but if you can't prove someones innocence in 7 years, it's more than likely they're not innocent.
Not true.

With the advances in science it has become easier to exonerate those that previously spent many years in jail.

In the future, many more innocent people will be freed thanks to more advances in science, etc.

[Mr_Jude]

Okay...I'm agreeing with you...

Previously I was simply stating that even if that were the statistics, I would still be for capital punishment. Also, I was saying I would give my life knowing that 100,000 cold blooded murders are going with me...

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles
Whether you would be willing to give your life or not is a moot point.

The "state" (government) has a responsibility to protect its citizens, and therefore should never execute an innocent one.

[nanutch]

many more people will be proven guilty with the advances in science then freed thats for sure.i believe in capital punishment.there are so many cases just so 100 percent guilty that are just brutal killings. i say eye for an eye punishment.

[tisJoefoo]

Here's my argument:

Capital punishment is gay.

[Fukface82]

Here's my argument:

Capital punishment is gay.

I wonder how the gay community feels about that. *thoughtful pose*

[citybabylissarage]

Not true.

With the advances in science it has become easier to exonerate those that previously spent many years in jail.

In the future, many more innocent people will be freed thanks to more advances in science, etc.

What isn't true about it? I said the chances are slim, which they are.

That it takes at LEAST 7-8 years to carry out an execution, which it does.

And that it's plenty of time to bring forward new evidence, which it is.

The advances of forensic science can be put into the evidence lot. :]

[Mr_Jude]

What isn't true about it? I said the chances are slim, which they are.

That it takes at LEAST 7-8 years to carry out an execution, which it does.

And that it's plenty of time to bring forward new evidence, which it is.

The advances of forensic science can be put into the evidence lot. :]
Yeah, uhm... But uh, yeah.

The chances are slim? How come there was a southern state (maybe Arkansas?) that stopped having the death penalty because some ridiculously high-amount of their death row inmates were found not-guilty in a two-or-three year period?

[codebluecary]

Lets Bring Back Flogging!!!

[tisJoefoo]

I wonder how the gay community feels about that. *thoughtful pose*

They probably want me dead.

[Fukface82]

They probably want me dead.

Most wouldn't care I think, but maybe some of the sketchy ones might want to chloroform you and perform an execution on your colon.:D

[citybabylissarage]

Yeah, uhm... But uh, yeah.

The chances are slim? How come there was a southern state (maybe Arkansas?) that stopped having the death penalty because some ridiculously high-amount of their death row inmates were found not-guilty in a two-or-three year period?

Maybe.. because it's Arkansas? They're not exactly known for education.

Plus, how long ago was this?

It's not even like most of the states have death penalty, most of the states don't.

I just know here, we execute more people than anyone else, and none of those problems have come up in recent years.

[tisJoefoo]

Most wouldn't care I think, but maybe some of the sketchy ones might want to chloroform you and perform an execution on your colon.:D

I was actually just playing on the fact that we were talking about capital punishment. Failed joke.

[INVISIBLE_LEADER]

Capital punishment is really bizzare. It's like, they want to use the idea of it to deter crime, but the actual act of it is treated like some obscene secret between the penal system and the person to be executed. It's not even about the execution anymore. Capitial punishment in America today realy just epitomizes the idea that the penal system isn't meant to punish the body, so much as it is meant to disconnect the individual from themself, thus punishing the soul. If it was just abot delivering physical punishment then we would still be drawing and quatering people instead of giving them tranquilizers before giving them a reletivy painless inejection and having a doctor on hand to make sure that they're comfortable until they finally croak. But instead we keed them in highly structured situations in which they aren't allowed to make any meaningful desicons for years on end in which physical punishment is only used as means to an end (usually obidience) and slowly break down any sense of self they might have, and then kill them in the least painfull way possible. So maybe the reason I'm against capital punishment is because I don't have enough of a God complex to want to fuck around with people like that.

[Fukface82]

I was actually just playing on the fact that we were talking about capital punishment. Failed joke.

Jesus, what do you think I was doing?

[Fukface82]

Capital punishment is really bizzare. It's like, they want to use the idea of it to deter crime, but the actual act of it is treated like some obscene secret between the penal system and the person to be executed. It's not even about the execution anymore. Capitial punishment in America today realy just epitomizes the idea that the penal system isn't meant to punish the body, so much as it is meant to disconnect the individual from themself, thus punishing the soul. If it was just abot delivering physical punishment then we would still be drawing and quatering people instead of giving them tranquilizers before giving them a reletivy painless inejection and having a doctor on hand to make sure that they're comfortable until they finally croak. But instead we keed them in highly structured situations in which they aren't allowed to make any meaningful desicons for years on end in which physical punishment is only used as means to an end (usually obidience) and slowly break down any sense of self they might have, and then kill them in the least painfull way possible. So maybe the reason I'm against capital punishment is because I don't have enough of a God complex to want to fuck around with people like that.


Well yeah, they think they can break people down into submission and they try and throw a media circus to promote it. That shit doesn't work with the hard ones. Gives them a podium most times. Like Tim McVey. He probably spoke out more about his feelings and beleifs on death row than he ever did in person.

[Smooth]

I don't think capital punishment is a good enough punishment at all.

I think that we should start tourturing people (publicly).

Death is too easy of a way out for those sick bastards!

Also, so what if some innocents die in the process. You can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs!

[Mr_Jude]

Maybe.. because it's Arkansas? They're not exactly known for education.

Plus, how long ago was this?

It's not even like most of the states have death penalty, most of the states don't.
Really? It's legal in 38 of 50 states.

That seems like "most states" actually DO have the death penalty.

I just know here, we execute more people than anyone else, and none of those problems have come up in recent years.
Because they haven't come up, then they don't exist, or what?

Thank you, play again next week.

[bunniegraves]

that letter gave me chills. i think if you can prove beyond all doubt that a person committed murder they should be put to death. but then again, what about things like: (i saw this on T.V, a show called Snapped) a mother found out her next door neighbor and his son had been molesting her little girl. she went to the neighbor and told him she was going to turn him in. as happenstance she carried a gun for protection in her purse wherever she went, and when the guy laughed in her face she lost it and shot him over 10 times in public. that, to me, is not deserving of the death penalty. i guess im undecided technically..but the sickos who eat children should be hung by their balls.

[khade bishude]

Mr. Jewed...

I see our good friend of the semetic faith enjoying some manachevitz perhaps. Shalom and hava nagala. I didn't know such a beverage was avilable at the Piggly Wiggly around the corner from the trailer park. However nothing beats a 3 foot deep pool. As this is my debut I would like to say hello to all and I give my warmest greetings (excluding Jewed, his people killed my savior.) And I can not wait for the diverting conversations to come.

[EndOfTheRoad77]

Lock them up & throw away the key.

[Mr_Jude]

Mr. Jewed...

I see our good friend of the semetic faith enjoying some manachevitz perhaps. Shalom and hava nagala. I didn't know such a beverage was avilable at the Piggly Wiggly around the corner from the trailer park. However nothing beats a 3 foot deep pool. As this is my debut I would like to say hello to all and I give my warmest greetings (excluding Jewed, his people killed my savior.) And I can not wait for the diverting conversations to come.
You're cute.

[citybabylissarage]

Really? It's legal in 38 of 50 states.

That seems like "most states" actually DO have the death penalty.


Because they haven't come up, then they don't exist, or what?

Thank you, play again next week.

Shit. I don't care, really.
Innocent people are going to die anyway, and it sucks that sometimes people get punished for a crime they didn't commit, but the system is and always has been imperfect. I'd rather have death penalty and lose a couple of innocents than just giving everyone consecutive life sentences, because honestly I don't want to spend the next thirty years paying taxes to keep murderers alive and healthy in jail.

[Mr_Jude]

Shit. I don't care, really.
Innocent people are going to die anyway, and it sucks that sometimes people get punished for a crime they didn't commit, but the system is and always has been imperfect. I'd rather have death penalty and lose a couple of innocents than just giving everyone consecutive life sentences, because honestly I don't want to spend the next thirty years paying taxes to keep murderers alive and healthy in jail.
I guess you don't get it, really.

It costs more to kill people than keep them in jail, usually.

And you (and everybody else) still hasn't given a reason why the state should be executing innocent people in the name of convenience.

[bunniegraves]

I guess you don't get it, really.

It costs more to kill people than keep them in jail, usually.

And you (and everybody else) still hasn't given a reason why the state should be executing innocent people in the name of convenience.

i think only the most disgusting crimes commited should be eligible for the death penalty. rapists, child molesters, killers of the innocent. the most disgusting people dont deserve the right to breathe air much less get 3 square a day. the rest can rot in a cell for all i care.

[Mr_Jude]

i think only the most disgusting crimes commited should be eligible for the death penalty. rapists, child molesters, killers of the innocent. the most disgusting people dont deserve the right to breathe air much less get 3 square a day. the rest can rot in a cell for all i care.
And innocent people will still be killed.

That is why Capital Punishment needs to go.

[bunniegraves]

And innocent people will still be killed.

That is why Capital Punishment needs to go.

abolishing the death penalty doesnt ensure that no innocents will be killed either. without the death penalty potential violent criminals will have nothing to fear, unless they happen to be clausterphobic. you mean if i kill someone, i should be allowed to live off other peoples money and have my meals and roof over my head paid for by honest hardworking people who dont commit crimes? how is that justified?

[Noodlesflyhigh]

Whether you would be willing to give your life or not is a moot point.

The "state" (government) has a responsibility to protect its citizens, and therefore should never execute an innocent one.

You're absolutely correct! The government does have an obligation to protect the citizens of the United States Of America. They need to protect us from people like Paul Bernardo & Karla Homolka who would kidnap young woman, rape, and beat them to death (meanwhile they videotaped it). They need to protect us from people like Charles Albright who surgically removed the eyeballs of his prostitute victims, we need to be protected from people like Dean Corll who was a closet homosexual that killed 27 boys, with torture, and mutilation. THESE are the people we need to be protected from.

Also, someone earlier was saying something about how the people that are getting executed are put to sleep first so they feel no pain. I think we should be using the electric chair, firing squad, and MAYBE the gas chamber.

I'd love to write more, but I'm at work.

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

[bunniegraves]

You're absolutely correct! The government does have an obligation to protect the citizens of the United States Of America. They need to protect us from people like Paul Bernardo & Karla Homolka who would kidnap young woman, rape, and beat them to death (meanwhile they videotaped it). They need to protect us from people like Charles Albright who surgically removed the eyeballs of his prostitute victims, we need to be protected from people like Dean Corll who was a closet homosexual that killed 27 boys, with torture, and mutilation. THESE are the people we need to be protected from.

Also, someone earlier was saying something about how the people that are getting executed are put to sleep first so they feel no pain. I think we should be using the electric chair, firing squad, and MAYBE the gas chamber.

I'd love to write more, but I'm at work.

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

I agree with you. Besides, in light of the cost issue, caputal punishment is reserved for the most violent and perverse crimes. otherwise youre more likely to serve a life term w/o possibilty of parole, which may suck, but its more than the person you killed/harmed gets.

[ThePope]

http://www.affordablehousinginstitute.org/blogs/us/drawn_quartered.jpg
Hanged drawn and quartered would certainly diminish crime to near zero, right? And besides, it's by far the most hardcore form of execution

But seriously, people that kill other people don't do it because they think they punishment will be light, they do it because they think they won't get caught. Using the death penalty will have practically no influence on the decision making process of your average serial killer.
Also, crime was astronomically high in the middle ages in Europe compared to today despite all the gruesome punishments they used back then.

[Mr_Jude]

You're absolutely correct! The government does have an obligation to protect the citizens of the United States Of America. They need to protect us from people like Paul Bernardo & Karla Homolka who would kidnap young woman, rape, and beat them to death (meanwhile they videotaped it). They need to protect us from people like Charles Albright who surgically removed the eyeballs of his prostitute victims, we need to be protected from people like Dean Corll who was a closet homosexual that killed 27 boys, with torture, and mutilation. THESE are the people we need to be protected from.
Killing someone after they commit a crime doesn't protect anyone.

[bunniegraves]

Killing someone after they commit a crime doesn't protect anyone.

it protects the next potential victim.

[KidoftheBlackHole]

Unless they are in prison.

Capital punishment does not deter serial killers from killing because they either don't care or don't think they will ever get caught.

[bunniegraves]

Unless they are in prison.

Capital punishment does not deter serial killers from killing because they either don't care or don't think they will ever get caught.

maybe not but be damned if i wanna spend money to put food in the fuckers mouth. the only people that deserve to live off of taxpayer money are the people who are not a major threat to society.

[Mr_Jude]

maybe not but be damned if i wanna spend money to put food in the fuckers mouth. the only people that deserve to live off of taxpayer money are the people who are not a major threat to society.
But they have to stay in jail until they are done their appeals anyway, in case they actually are innocent... So it ends up costing a lot more.

You really don't have a leg to stand on, and you're grasping at straws here... Or simply not understanding that it costs more to put someone on death row... Life sentences are cheaper.

[bunniegraves]

But they have to stay in jail until they are done their appeals anyway, in case they actually are innocent... So it ends up costing a lot more.

You really don't have a leg to stand on, and you're grasping at straws here... Or simply not understanding that it costs more to put someone on death row... Life sentences are cheaper.

im not grasping at anything. cheaper or not, i dont think its fair for some psycho to be able to -live- the rest of his or her life behind bars when they have taken the lives of innocents. why should we give them the basic necessities of life (food, water, shelter) when, for x amount of dollars more, we can take them out of existence? i dont give a shit about economics, if you wanna be violent and harm others, you get to pay the price of your actions, sound or not.

[Noodlesflyhigh]

But they have to stay in jail until they are done their appeals anyway, in case they actually are innocent... So it ends up costing a lot more.

You really don't have a leg to stand on, and you're grasping at straws here... Or simply not understanding that it costs more to put someone on death row... Life sentences are cheaper.

Screw the money, the point is that these people deserve to die. There will be less murdering if everyone knew that no matter what they would get the electric chair.

Of course murderers aren't thinking about the punishment while their killing someone, but I guarantee they would be thinking about the punishment if it was old smoky.

Also, think about this; what if everyone who raped a woman, child, or man got castrated. I GUARANTEE there would be far less sick, twisted fucks out there raping people.

I think the few innocents that die from capital punishment,will be dying for a beautiful cause.

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

[bunniegraves]

Screw the money, the point is that these people deserve to die. There will be less murdering if everyone knew that no matter what they would get the electric chair.

Of course murderers aren't thinking about the punishment while their killing someone, but I guarantee they would be thinking about the punishment if it was old smoky.

Also, think about this; what if everyone who raped a woman, child, or man got castrated. I GUARANTEE there would be far less sick, twisted fucks out there raping people.

I think the few innocents that die from capital punishment,will be dying for a beautiful cause.

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

exactly.

[ThePope]

In fact, some criminologists, such as William Bowers of Northeastern University, maintain that the death penalty has the opposite effect: that is, society is brutalized by the use of the death penalty, and this increases the likelihood of more murder. Even most supporters of the death penalty now place little or no weight on deterrence as a serious justification for its continued use.

States in the United States that do not employ the death penalty generally have lower murder rates than states that do. The same is true when the U.S. is compared to countries similar to it. The U.S., with the death penalty, has a higher murder rate than the countries of Europe or Canada, which do not use the death penalty.

The death penalty is not a deterrent because most people who commit murders either do not expect to be caught or do not carefully weigh the differences between a possible execution and life in prison before they act. Frequently, murders are committed in moments of passion or anger, or by criminals who are substance abusers and acted impulsively. As someone who presided over many of Texas's executions, former Texas Attorney General Jim Mattox has remarked, "It is my own experience that those executed in Texas were not deterred by the existence of the death penalty law. I think in most cases you'll find that the murder was committed under severe drug and alcohol abuse."

There is no conclusive proof that the death penalty acts as a better deterrent than the threat of life imprisonment. A survey of the former and present presidents of the country's top academic criminological societies found that 84% of these experts rejected the notion that research had demonstrated any deterrent effect from the death penalty .

http://deathpenaltyinfo.msu.edu/c/about/arguments/argument1b.htm

[KidoftheBlackHole]

I can remember some of that from class but it is all true. I go to Northeastern University and am a Criminal Justice minor although I've never had that professor. I've only had one CJ class thus far though.

How does killing people who kill people show that killing is wrong?

[khade bishude]

Does anyone recall when a young man was caned in Singapore? Do you think he will vandalize anythin ever again? If you have your hand violently removed will you reconsider before you steal? Did you get spanked when you drew all over the walls as a child(or last week)? We need to consider the end to which these means provide. I think rapist need to be labeled as such and sent into the general prison population. Let's see how they like the rapin'! If one of my children was killed by some ass hole I would exhaust all of my assets just to make sure I was the one who got to pull the trigger. The penalties in place in this country are weak. The only thing a criminal has to worry about is three meals a day and a warm bed to sleep in. Show me the justice in that. I'm moving to Texas...

[Mr_Jude]

Does anyone recall when a young man was caned in Singapore? Do you think he will vandalize anythin ever again?
No, he won't. But that doesn't mean someone else won't... Which means the death penalty isn't a deterrent, since you actually kill the criminal, making it so that he can never again do it, but at the same time, don't deter anyone else from killing.

The penalties in place in this country are weak.
Unless it's for drugs.

[khade bishude]

Capital punishment is being generalized and the death penalty. State side death is the norm, I agree. However look to the countries where other forms of capital punishment is used. Look at the forms of capital punishment used in our homes. There are things I just didn't do as a child and an adolecent out of fear of said punisment.

Quote:
The penalties in place in this country are weak.

Unless it's for drugs.

Is that such a bad thing?

Note this taken from a post by The Pope
"I think in most cases you'll find that the murder was committed under severe drug and alcohol abuse."


If former Texas Attorney General Jim Mattox's opinions are taken into consideration there should be more stringent penalties concerning drugs.

[ThePope]

on the contrary, I would legalize all drugs. The DEA already spends 30 billion dollars every year year to eliminate a miniscuel percentage of drugs in America, the drug war is hopeless and has been for 30+ years now. What we need to do is go to the "root" of the problem, as they say, and find out what makes people turn to hard drugs (ie- not marijuana, which a lot of the arrests are for) in the first place, some of those reasons likely include poverty, the huge wealth disparity in this country, and mental illness, none of which can be remedied by simply making something illegal or increasing punishments for anything.

[Mr_Jude]

Is that such a bad thing?
Yeah, it is.

There's no reason to incarcerate people for using a lot of drugs.

Do you know why drugs are a "problem"? Because they're illegal. They create an environment of crime around them, just as alcohol did during prohibition.

[bunniegraves]

Jude, you still havent argued why its justifiable to let a criminal live relatively comfortably in a cell, living off the taxes of law abiding citizens. how is that punishment? your argument that the death penalty doesnt stop others from killing is also applicable to the life sentence option. no matter how many people you "humanely" extracate from society for murder there will always be more people out there unphased by the consequences, especially if its as effortless as just living in an 8x10 room. we're supposed to just keep building more prisons? sending the message that murder is tolerated and in fact defended?

[Mr_Jude]

Jude, you still havent argued why its justifiable to let a criminal live relatively comfortably in a cell, living off the taxes of law abiding citizens. how is that punishment?
Uhm, perhaps because it's not comfortable? If you really think prison is a comfy, cozy place, you're looney. In prison, one has to constantly watch out for their life. The only "comfy prisons" are minimum security, which is not where murderers go.

Anyway, I don't have to justify that. The 100% core argument here is that innocent people can be put to death - until you find a perfect justice system, there should be no death penalty.

your argument that the death penalty doesnt stop others from killing is also applicable to the life sentence option.
Uh, duh.

However, some people were arguing that the death penalty is a deterrent, which it's not. My "argument" was simply a response to their idiocy.

[KidoftheBlackHole]

Yeah um prison is not a wonderful place. The most heinous criminals spend almost all of thier time in solitary confinement. Prison is supposed to deter people from committing more crimes. It dosn't always work like that but that dosn't mean prison is an enjoyable place. The vast majority of crimes are out of necessity. When people have no money or food they will do just about anything to get them. Again putting someone to death costs more than keeping them in prison for life.

I don't know where this whole eye for an eye thing is coming from. An eye for an eye was a large step in the criminal justice system thousands of years ago. It eliminated blood fueds. People were murdering each others families over what one family member did to them. I would hope that human beings have come slightly forward since then.

[Fukface82]

It all really doesn't matter and it never will. In time all traces of mans civilization will most likely cease unless we make it beyond our star system to pollute the rest of the universe.

[khade bishude]

Yeah, it is.

There's no reason to incarcerate people for using a lot of drugs.

Do you know why drugs are a "problem"? Because they're illegal. They create an environment of crime around them, just as alcohol did during prohibition.

So what you're saying is that crack heads will stop robbing people if we were to legalize crack? Legalization of elicit drugs will not take away the crime surrounding it. The user will still have to steal to purchase. Moving on...


The 100% core argument here is that innocent people can be put to death - until you find a perfect justice system, there should be no death penalty.

Innocent people can rot in prison and "constantly watch out for their life" in our current justice system. Certainly, they are still alive, but not in a life that I would choose to live. Innocent people die everyday. One just died today at the hands of a crack head looking for a fix. I haven't seen the statement that the death penalty is perfect. Nothing that comes of man is perfect. I'll say again that there are more creative ways of capital punishment than death. I would love to see a crack head caned for the crimes they commited. After that, send his sore ass to rehab.

[Mr_Jude]

So what you're saying is that crack heads will stop robbing people if we were to legalize crack? Legalization of elicit drugs will not take away the crime surrounding it. The user will still have to steal to purchase. Moving on...
Not necessarily.

You have absolutely no way of knowing that is true.

Anyway, the "crime" I'm talking about is gang-related violence that is directly related to the sale of drugs (a lot of it is).


Innocent people can rot in prison and "constantly watch out for their life" in our current justice system. Certainly, they are still alive, but not in a life that I would choose to live.
Yes, but when it's found out that they are innocent - guess what - they're not dead! And since they're not dead, they can get out of prison and continue to live their lives, then reap a huge financial reward that, while it can't make up for what happened to them, gives them something small in return.

Innocent people die everyday.
But the state has no business causing their death.

[Noodlesflyhigh]

Killing someone after they commit a crime doesn't protect anyone.

Killing someone after they commit MURDER does protect people.

These murderers will never get the chance to kill again, and they will be free from the evil thoughts that are swimming around in their mind.

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

[Smooth]

Recently in China there was a man put to death for starting a forest fire.

I think the United States can learn something here. Start putting people to death, and make it a public spectical. You could even sell tickets for the show, to pay for any expenses that might be incurred.


Seems like I'm the only person with anything to say other than bitching how wrong our system is.


We should all brainstorm and write our congressmen!:D

[KidoftheBlackHole]

Killing someone after they commit MURDER does protect people.

These murderers will never get the chance to kill again, and they will be free from the evil thoughts that are swimming around in their mind.

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

They also can't kill someone if they are locked away in solitary for the rest to of their life. Murder can still occur in jail but it is much harder if you are in a Supermax Prison which is where they would go. Prisoners are locked in solitary for 23 hours out of the day and when they leave they are handcuffed, chained and watched constantly by 3 armed guards. They are never in contact with any other prisoners.

[Phil_Spectre]

Anyone else find it ironic that the death penalty fan signs his posts with "PEACE LOVE EMPATHY" ?

[Noodlesflyhigh]

Anyone else find it ironic that the death penalty fan signs his posts with "PEACE LOVE EMPATHY" ?

I want peace, and the death penalty will bring peace by destroying those who create chaos.

I am a very empathetic person, and I empathize with the families that are harmed by having a child, mother, father, or friend murdered. I think they deserve justice. I also empathize with people who have had their mind screwed up by horrible experience ect. I think these people need to be protected from themselves, and be relieved of their horrible thoughts...through death.

Love...well love is self explanatory...you are all my brothers, and sisters. I care for all of you, and it doesn't mean that I don't love the brothers, and sisters who murder. It means that I think these people have something wrong with their brain, and they need to be put out of their misery (like I said above).

Try not assuming what people mean...because you may be completely wrong.

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

[Noodlesflyhigh]

I doubt any of you will take the time to read this...but if you believe in God, I suggest you read this:

The death penalty was first instituted by God Himself in Genesis 9:6: "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." Man didn't invent the death penalty, so man has no right to abandon it. We live in an age when everyone is far too concerned with "human rights", and God has been practically ignored, as if He had no rights at all.

God does have rights, and it is His right to do as He pleases with His own creation. Man is the highest form of life on this earth, created in God's own image, and crowned with glory and honor (Psa. 8:5). God has given man the MORAL DUTY to execute those who choose to take the lives of others. Exodus 21:12 says, "He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death." Do you wish to honor God? Then you must support the death penalty, because God commands it.

Someone says, "Well, that's just the Old Testament law. The New Testament doesn't support the death penalty." I beg your pardon! Have you read Acts 25:11? Have you read Roman 13:1-4? What about Revelation 13:10? Friend, God has never changed His law of Capital Punishment for murderers!

Revelation 13:10 says, "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints." If the death penalty is no longer in effect, then why is this verse even in the New Testament?

In Acts 25:11 the apostle Paul says, "For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar. Paul admitted that some things were "worthy of death," and that he was willing to "die" if he was guilty of such an offense. If the death penalty is not for today, then why didn't Paul tell us?

In the very next book, Paul reaffirms this truth. Notice very carefully Romans 13:1-4: "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."

Did you see that? Those in authority are ordained by God (just as in Genesis 9:6) to "execute" wrath upon evil doers. Paul said, "...he beareth not the sword in vain..."A sword is used for one thing: KILLING! Killers are to be killed, and God's will has not been fulfilled until our governing bodies have executed wrath upon those who have killed others.

Let's take it a step further. Did you know that God has actually promised to BLESS us if we follow His plan of using the death penalty? Notice Deuteronomy 19:11-13

"But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die, and fleeth into one of these cities: Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die. Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with thee."

Did you see that? He said, "...that it may go well with thee..." God WANTS things to go well with us! God WANTS to bless our nation, but He can't do it with killers running loose or with them sitting in prison receiving free meals, free housing, free clothing, a free education, and free legal counselling! That's insane! That's wicked! I cannot honestly ask God to bless America while we allow such wickedness to prevail. He will not do it! He cannot go against His own words. We must honor God and obey His word before we can expect His blessings.

The Death Penalty Is A Deterrent to Crime

A common argument is that statistics do not show that the death penalty deters crime when we compare death penalty states with non-death penalty states. Of course it doesn't! The states that HAVE the death penalty do not use it enough to show anything! Less than fifty executions out of 18,000 murders isn't going to accomplish much! I bet 18,000 executions would deter some crime! I bet the murder rate would fall quicker than the 1929 stock market!

I personally think we need TELEVISED executions every night at 8:00 p.m. on national television. Forget the movie of the week. Let's just have about 50,000,000 Americans sit down every night and see some little children crying about their mother who was raped and murdered. Let's see some moms and dads mourning over their little girl who was molested and murdered by some wicked devil, and then let's see the rascal get what he deserves. I bet that would deter some crime! You say, "Man, you're crazy!" Am I? Did you ever read how God commanded the Israelites to execute people? It was a PUBLIC STONING? Is God crazy too?

The Death Penalty Is Good for the Environment

It seems that everywhere you turn these days some special interest group is whining about the environment. An actor out in Hollywood, back in the eighties, said we'd all be gone in ten years because we're destroying our environment. Everyone seems just terrified with all this talk about global warming, the ozone, the endangered species, the rain forests and the wet lands, but they're all in an uproar about NOTHING--absolutely nothing. If you know your Bible, then you know this old planet will survive for AT LEAST another 1007 years! So, let's all relax and concentrate on something that will REALLY help the environment. Let's get serious about Capital Punishment!

How does the death penalty help the environment? God's word can answer that

"And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. And if he smite him with throwing a stone, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. Or if he smite him with an hand weapon of wood, wherewith he may die, and he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. The revenger of blood himself shall slay the murderer: when he meeteth him, he shall slay him. But if he thrust him of hatred, or hurl at him by laying of wait, that he die; Or in enmity smite him with his hand, that he die: he that smote him shall surely be put to death; for he is a murderer: the revenger of blood shall slay the murderer, when he meeteth him." (Num. 35:16-21)

"Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die. Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death." (Num. 35:30-31)

Now, here comes the environmental part:

"So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it. Defile not therefore the land which ye shall inhabit, wherein I dwell: for I the LORD dwell among the children of Israel." ( vs. 33-34)

Did you see that? God said that the land is POLLUTED and DEFILED when killers go free. In God's word, environmental pollution is associated with SIN, not carbon monoxide and lead poisoning. The best way to clean up America is JUSTICE. Justice will teach people to respect the law once again and to fear God. If that happens, maybe more people will repent of their sins and receive Jesus Christ as their Saviour. Nothing could help our environment more.

Friend, you just read what God's word has to say about the death penalty. If you don't support it, then right now is the time for you to start. You should get on your knees and ask God to forgive you for ignoring His word and being ignorant of His will concerning the death penalty. Then contact us and order about fifty of these tracts to give to your friends and family members.

If you've never received the Lord Jesus Christ as your Saviour, then why not do so right now? Jesus said that salvation is a new birth, a spiritual birth from God (John 3:3). The salvation of your soul is entirely a spiritual matter. No amount of outward physical acts, such as church attendance, receiving sacraments, confession, or being baptized can save you. You MUST be born again. You must come to know the Lord Jesus Christ personally in your own heart. Friend, you need more than a religion: you need a relationship.

John 1:12 tells us how this personal relationship with Jesus Christ is established: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" Friend, you must RECEIVE Jesus Christ! He's the one who bled and died for your sins! He's the one who was buried, and then arose again after three days for your justification! Jesus Christ is the one who is currently seated at the right hand of God, waiting for you to repent of your sins (Luk. 13:3) and trust Him alone to save you. Acts 4:12 tells us, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." No church, no preacher, no priest, and no creed can save you. You can only be saved by the Lord Jesus Christ. Will you trust Him today

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Rom. 10:13)

I took this from a separate web-site.

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

[dead_head]

well here's my opinion though i'd rather remain nuetral.

Yes you do have a point with the money. Why should we have to pay taxes to help keep criminals alive.

Then on the other hand, is killing some one really a way to teach people the lesson that killing is wrong? You have to keep in mind that a good majority of the people who are given the capital punishment are murders. In a way it makes the government hypocritical.

[Noodlesflyhigh]

As human beings we are given a conscience...that's how we know right from wrong.

When your mind is so messed up that you think that killing is enjoyable, you need to die. You need to be freed from yourself, and prison will not do that.

Read the statements above.

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY

-Noodles

[Death_By_Punk]

You ever watch an execution on tv?

They're hella entertaining.

Its really funny to go "I'M NOT EVEN SUPPOSED TO BE HERE TODAY!" as they die.

[x_punksrawks_X]

I saw Saddam getting hung, it wasn a little entertaining as i watched it twice

[KidoftheBlackHole]

Now God is being brought into it. Ugh. I really have no desire to start talking about God because then I'm going to start arguing against the existence of God or at the very least what everyone thinks God is and wants. But I probably will anyway.

You have no idea that God instilled the death penalty. You can't assume he did just because the bible says so. You have never spoken to God so you can't know. The bible is so far removed from what it originally said it's ridciculous. For example Mary was originally referred to as a Maiden and not a Virgin. But during translation Maiden got changed to Virgin so she is now know as the Virgin Mary. Plus people have added and changed parts of the bible for thousands of years. Also what happened to to other gospels? How come they weren't good enough to be in the bible and who decided they were not? But this is not really where I want to go anyway. We are not debating religion here. But I just find justifying killing someone with God is hypocritical. If there is a God no one knows what his views on this matter are. Just because a book tells me God is for the death penalty even though it goes against other things God reportedly says in this book dosn't mean I am going to believe it.

[Mr_Jude]

I doubt any of you will take the time to read this...but if you believe in God, I suggest you read this:

The death penalty was first instituted by God Himself in Genesis 9:6: "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." Man didn't invent the death penalty, so man has no right to abandon it. We live in an age when everyone is far too concerned with "human rights", and God has been practically ignored, as if He had no rights at all.

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles
Actually, the death penalty, in writing, was first instituted by Hammurabi. Hammurabi's code was the first written set of laws, and pre-dates the Bible.

The end.

[Mr_Jude]

I want peace, and the death penalty will bring peace by destroying those who create chaos.
Chaos is healthy for the world. Without chaos, there can be no order.

[Mr_Jude]

Anyone else find it ironic that the death penalty fan signs his posts with "PEACE LOVE EMPATHY" ?
Yeah, I do.

And her defense of is that killing murderers brings peace.

What about love?

Or empathy? Empathy implies feeling the pain of others and understanding.

If only she tried to understand these awful murderers, maybe she wouldn't feel that way.

[Death_By_Punk]

I've been saying for years that we should simply resort back to the Gladitorial system. Because I would've paid hundreds of dollars to see Tookie Williams and Mumia Abdul locked in a fight to the death.

[Noodlesflyhigh]

Now God is being brought into it. Ugh. I really have no desire to start talking about God because then I'm going to start arguing against the existence of God or at the very least what everyone thinks God is and wants. But I probably will anyway.

You have no idea that God instilled the death penalty. You can't assume he did just because the bible says so. You have never spoken to God so you can't know. The bible is so far removed from what it originally said it's ridciculous. For example Mary was originally referred to as a Maiden and not a Virgin. But during translation Maiden got changed to Virgin so she is now know as the Virgin Mary. Plus people have added and changed parts of the bible for thousands of years. Also what happened to to other gospels? How come they weren't good enough to be in the bible and who decided they were not? But this is not really where I want to go anyway. We are not debating religion here. But I just find justifying killing someone with God is hypocritical. If there is a God no one knows what his views on this matter are. Just because a book tells me God is for the death penalty even though it goes against other things God reportedly says in this book dosn't mean I am going to believe it.


Well...so much to say...

Well, obviously we all are going to have different view on religion. I'd just like to say that your statements are correct. There are many books missing, as well as verses missing from the Bible. After the Catholics got a hold of the books they were chained to the pulpits. They decided what each verse meant, and what needed to be included. I can find at least ten different versus in the bible the contradictory. That's why I pray when I read the bible, I pray to know whether or not what I'm reading it true or false.

I felt like you some time ago, why should a book that has been changed have any influence on my life, and my beliefs. Then I prayed...I pray about everything really.

You said in your statement above that no one knows that God's beliefs are...and nobody knows how he feels on certain issues. That is your personal opinion...but I know someone who knows what God's views are, and what he wants from us his name is Gordon B. Hinckley. I also know of a book that is another testament of Jesus Christ, and I know that book is true because I asked God.

"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

[Noodlesflyhigh]

Yeah, I do.

And her defense of is that killing murderers brings peace.

What about love?

Or empathy? Empathy implies feeling the pain of others and understanding.

If only she tried to understand these awful murderers, maybe she wouldn't feel that way.

I wouldn't even call it killing I'd call it "putting them to sleep". They feel absolutely no pain, and go peacefully. Yes, I do think that putting cold blooded murderers to death will bring much peace.

I love all of my brothers, and sisters on this Earth. I think that these murderers are possessed, or just have serious brain problems. I think they need to be freed from themselves, and from the evil that has embedded into their minds.

I am very empathetic, (please keep in mind I'm getting a Ph.D in Psychology, I have to be empathetic). Coming from a religious stand-point, these people are all possessed by the one, and only fuck-face (you know who I'm referring to) so they aren't going to be able to control themselves. They need to be put out of their misery. Their hurting themselves, their hurting others...they need to go home.

I empathize with the murderers who have grown up in terrible environments, but they need to realize we're all given challenges. I think the ones that are given the biggest challenges (such as having horrible childhoods, or being molested, or being abused in any other way) were the strongest of us. God won't put something on your plate he doesn't think you can handle...just remember that no matter what has happened to you, someone else has felt exactly what you have felt...and ten times more...his name is Jesus Christ.

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

[Mr_Jude]

I wouldn't even call it killing I'd call it "putting them to sleep". They feel absolutely no pain, and go peacefully. Yes, I do think that putting cold blooded murderers to death will bring much peace.

I love all of my brothers, and sisters on this Earth. I think that these murderers are possessed, or just have serious brain problems. I think they need to be freed from themselves, and from the evil that has embedded into their minds.

I am very empathetic, (please keep in mind I'm getting a Ph.D in Psychology, I have to be empathetic). Coming from a religious stand-point, these people are all possessed by the one, and only fuck-face (you know who I'm referring to) so they aren't going to be able to control themselves. They need to be put out of their misery. Their hurting themselves, their hurting others...they need to go home.

I empathize with the murderers who have grown up in terrible environments, but they need to realize we're all given challenges. I think the ones that are given the biggest challenges (such as having horrible childhoods, or being molested, or being abused in any other way) were the strongest of us. God won't put something on your plate he doesn't think you can handle...just remember that no matter what has happened to you, someone else has felt exactly what you have felt...and ten times more...his name is Jesus Christ.

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles
A psychologist shouldn't talk about people being possessed by the devil. It's really not a good thing.

Nor is it a valid argument. Religion is never a valid argument. You lose.

[Noodlesflyhigh]

A psychologist shouldn't talk about people being possessed by the devil. It's really not a good thing.

Nor is it a valid argument. Religion is never a valid argument. You lose.

It doesn't matter what my occupation is, I can talk about being possessed whenever I wish.

At work, no, I don't go into discussing religion unless I'm volunteering to counsel someone within my church.

Thank you for telling me what is, and is not valid...after all Jude, you are the Czar of right...:rolleyes:

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

[Mr_Jude]

It doesn't matter what my occupation is, I can talk about being possessed whenever I wish.

At work, no, I don't go into discussing religion unless I'm volunteering to counsel someone within my church.

Thank you for telling me what is, and is not valid...after all Jude, you are the Czar of right...:rolleyes:
In a discussion about law, religion is not valid, because everybody has different religions. Using religion in your argument proves that your argument has no real validity.

[Noodlesflyhigh]

I'm simply explaining the reasons why I believe in the death penalty, and why I feel that it should be used more often.

I do agree with you in a way...

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

[ThePope]

I was talking to god a few minutes ago and he told me I should eat some chocolate ice cream, which sounded delicious at the time, but now I have a tummy ache:( god should have forseen this, I guess he doesn't love me:(

[KidoftheBlackHole]

You have every right to believe whatever you want to believe. I just felt that using the Bible to support capital punishment was not a very strong argument. Given that we have no idea if anything in the bible is what God actually said or wanted, that it contradicts itself, and that it has been radically changed over the years from it's original version. But I know that it's not really the main point in your argument.

I feel everyone has a right to live. Even the serial killers. Do they deserve a good life no. They deserve to spend the rest of their lives in prison in solitary confinement. Everyone is going to die sometime. What difference does it make whether they die now or 50 years from now. What gives us the right to choose whether people live or die. The serial killers did not have a right to kill those people. But then do we have the right to kill them. How does killing people who kill people show that killing is wrong? If someone close to me was murdered my opinions might change but I don't know since that event has not happened to me and I cannot predict the future.

Then what about Antisocial Personality Disorder? If someone has this and it then causes them to kill people should they be executed. Is that fair? They are not the same as a serial killer who does not have Antisocial Personality Disorder. So then should their punishment be the same or different? Who has the right to choose this? Do we? If so why? Because we aren't murderers? Is that reason enough? To me it isn't.

You don't have to be a psych major and not believe in the death penalty or vice versa. I'm a Psych major and I don't but that's just my opinion. One should not assume that because some is gettimg a Doctorate in Psychology that they have to be empathic to every person on the planet.

[Phil_Spectre]

I want peace, and the death penalty will bring peace by destroying those who create chaos.




We should kill all the undesireables. I know, lets put them into camps!

[Mr_Jude]

We should kill all the undesireables. I know, lets put them into camps!
Dude, I think somebody tried that already... Didn't work out to well for him.

But hey, by all means, if you have a new, fool-proof plan, let's get to work!

[Mr_Jude]

And, just to make sure here... The Jews are still undesirables, right?

[Noodlesflyhigh]

You have every right to believe whatever you want to believe. I just felt that using the Bible to support capital punishment was not a very strong argument. Given that we have no idea if anything in the bible is what God actually said or wanted, that it contradicts itself, and that it has been radically changed over the years from it's original version. But I know that it's not really the main point in your argument.

I feel everyone has a right to live. Even the serial killers. Do they deserve a good life no. They deserve to spend the rest of their lives in prison in solitary confinement. Everyone is going to die sometime. What difference does it make whether they die now or 50 years from now. What gives us the right to choose whether people live or die. The serial killers did not have a right to kill those people. But then do we have the right to kill them. How does killing people who kill people show that killing is wrong? If someone close to me was murdered my opinions might change but I don't know since that event has not happened to me and I cannot predict the future.

Then what about Antisocial Personality Disorder? If someone has this and it then causes them to kill people should they be executed. Is that fair? They are not the same as a serial killer who does not have Antisocial Personality Disorder. So then should their punishment be the same or different? Who has the right to choose this? Do we? If so why? Because we aren't murderers? Is that reason enough? To me it isn't.

You don't have to be a psych major and not believe in the death penalty or vice versa. I'm a Psych major and I don't but that's just my opinion. One should not assume that because some is gettimg a Doctorate in Psychology that they have to be empathic to every person on the planet.

:)

Finally, someone that will be interesting to talk with...

You see, to someone like you that doesn't believe there is any way of knowing that the bible is the work of God, my argument will be completely irrelevant.

I guess a good question is 'how do I personally know that the bible is the work of God'? The answer is through prayer.

I've read quite a bit of the bible (not the entire thing), and afterwards I prayed and asked for wisdom. No God didn't come down from a white fluffy cloud, and tell me it was true...no I didn't hear any voices, no I didn't close my eyes, and see a big "YES" in capital letters. I did however just know...I just know it's true. I felt the spirit, and I know it's true.

I do know that a lot of the bible is missing, and has been intentionally taken out by the Catholic Church. However, I believe in another book called The Book Of Mormon...and I believe the gospel has been restored through this book.

Anyways, since your a psych major as well...I'm sure you've also seen your fair share of clients with various disorders. Personally, I have yet to meet any serial killers...and I'm not going into criminal psychology, I'm going into private practice. I think you, and I know that most serial killers are beautifully molded sociopaths, they can make you believe almost anything.

Of course, I must mention this as well, I think that EVERYONES case is different. What about the daughter who slit her father's throat because he was constantly raping her? What about the nephew who's uncle murdered his mother? Is an eye for an eye still relevant in this day, and age? It really does go back to religious beliefs.

Anyways, if you want to discuss religion that would be great...however, with you I think that the whole religious argument for capital punishment does not apply.

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

[Noodlesflyhigh]

And, just to make sure here... The Jews are still undesirables, right?

How about we make the 1% of society that controls 98% of the Earth's money the undesirables...makes sense right?

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

[Mr_Jude]

How about we make the 1% of society that controls 98% of the Earth's money the undesirables...makes sense right?

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles
Sounds great.

I didn't know they controlled 98% of the wealth, though.

Have you been reading nazi pamphlets again?

[Noodlesflyhigh]

Fuck you, I've never said anything anti-semitic...

Anyways...here, learn something:

n classical economics its called the 80/20 rule or Pareto Principle, taken to an extreme. an excellent book on the subject is the "Winner take all society". But to answer your question, let's look at it another way, why is the lower 70 or 80% SO poor.

Extreme wealth concentration is an indication that a society is not well balanced and that there is the potential for social disruption over time. Good examples include Pre-Imperial England, France , Tsarist Russia, Imperial China and Prussia.

Typically this is due to a couple of issues,

1. There is insufficient capital being placed into the marketplace for/by the lower % of people.

2. There is sufficient capital but it is not being reinvested in productive ways which would tend to redistribute it.

3. There is sufficient capital but due to taxation or other factors (food/fuel/inflation etc) the situation of individuals is heading in a negative direction.

In our society there are additional concentration factors.

1. The winner take all "effect". Why buy some very good opera singers recording of an Aria from the local university , when you can have Placido Domingo or Luciano Pavarotti. Consequently the dollars get concentrated towards their labels and themselves rather than distributed more evenly across the marketplace of opera singers.

2. The placement/marketing effect, Coke or Pepsi? It's a choice but really the difference is between one black/brown fizzy, over sweet drink and another. Ginger Ale guys are on their own, because it's the illusion of choice offered by Coke OR Pepsi. This makes BOTH Coke and Pepsi rich, and leaves everyone else to 3rd bench in the marketplace.

Source(s):
The Winner take all society
The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers
The Bell Curve
The Flight of the Creative Class
Economics : Study Manual
Discrete Mathematics

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

[Mr_Jude]

I understand economics. I was in Mensa, remember. We talked about stuff like that in that group that you can't join because you're not smart enough.

[ThePope]

they let 3 year olds into Mensa

[Noodles]

I understand economics. I was in Mensa, remember. We talked about stuff like that in that group that you can't join because you're not smart enough.

I thought Mensa sucked ass, because all they did was sit around talking about how great they were?

Ohhhh wait...that would be a hobby of yours...

Of course I don't want to join some idiotic "club" to prove to myself, and mommy, and daddy how fucking smart I am.

I need to start bragging more...because I joined a different club, a better club, it's called 'Masters Degree Club'. You can't join it because your busy taking pictures of bar mitzvahs.

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

[Mr_Jude]

I thought Mensa sucked ass, because all they did was sit around talking about how great they were?

Ohhhh wait...that would be a hobby of yours...

Of course I don't want to join some idiotic "club" to prove to myself, and mommy, and daddy how fucking smart I am.

I need to start bragging more...because I joined a different club, a better club, it's called 'Masters Degree Club'. You can't join it because your busy taking pictures of bar mitzvahs.
Nah, I could join that club tomorrow if I felt like dishing out the money to get the degree... I have the credits, afterall.

Anyway, Mensa is a better club, it's more elite. More people have masters degrees than are in Mensa.

I'm more special than you. I know your mother told you that you were special, but the mother of every child that rode the shortbus told their child that.

[Noodlesflyhigh]

If it is such an exclusive, awesome club why are you no longer affiliated with them? Actually, no, wait...I don't care.

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

[KidoftheBlackHole]

I actually work in a group home now so I have witnessed various mental disorders. Everyone there has either Schizophrenia, Schizoaffective Personality Disorder, OCD, or a combination of 2 of these disorders. Naturally I haven't experienced any violence with this except when the Schizophrenics suffered their psychotic break and attacked a relative. But I wan't there to witness those and that wouldn't really give me experience dealing with a murderer.

Anyway I just don't feel we have the right to decide on the death of others no matter what they did. I don't feel killing those who kill shows that killing is wrong. It's basically an eye for an eye which I don't agree with. You believe otherwise and that's perfectly fine. You aren't using weak arguments like capital punishment deters crime, because it dosn't. I think some people earlier were. You believe in capital punishment and I don't. I don't feel any need to attack you because you have a different opinion than me or resort to name calling as some others seem to be doing. But people have the right do whatever they want.

[Smooth]

The more you talk, the more ignorant you sound.

[Noodles]

The more you talk, the more ignorant you sound.

I disagree...

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

[Smooth]

I disagree...

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

What are you trying to start?

[Noodles]

;)

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

[dead_head]

I actually work in a group home now so I have witnessed various mental disorders. Everyone there has either Schizophrenia, Schizoaffective Personality Disorder, OCD, or a combination of 2 of these disorders. Naturally I haven't experienced any violence with this except when the Schizophrenics suffered their psychotic break and attacked a relative. But I wan't there to witness those and that wouldn't really give me experience dealing with a murderer.

Anyway I just don't feel we have the right to decide on the death of others no matter what they did. I don't feel killing those who kill shows that killing is wrong. It's basically an eye for an eye which I don't agree with. You believe otherwise and that's perfectly fine. You aren't using weak arguments like capital punishment deters crime, because it dosn't. I think some people earlier were. You believe in capital punishment and I don't. I don't feel any need to attack you because you have a different opinion than me or resort to name calling as some others seem to be doing. But people have the right do whatever they want.

i know several people who have been in group homes. To me they don't seem to have schiztofrenia or OCD

[Noodles]

i know several people who have been in group homes. To me they don't seem to have schiztofrenia or OCD

I don't think he meant that every single person in a group home has schizophrenia.

The ones that he WORKS with do.

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

[KidoftheBlackHole]

i know several people who have been in group homes. To me they don't seem to have schiztofrenia or OCD

If they are aware of thier diagnosis, can distinguish between reality and a hallucination, and medication completely controls their symptoms then it wouldn't seem like they have Schizophrenia or Schizoaffective Disorder but in most cases all these criteria are not met. Also not everyone in a group home had to have Schizophrenia or Schizoaffective disorder. The people in the house I work at have one or the other.

[KidoftheBlackHole]

The more you talk, the more ignorant you sound.

Why all the hostility?

[Noodlesflyhigh]

He's just projecting his anger onto you.

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

[KidoftheBlackHole]

He's just projecting his anger onto you.

PEACE LOVE EMPATHY
-Noodles

I see.

[dead_head]

If they are aware of thier diagnosis, can distinguish between reality and a hallucination, and medication completely controls their symptoms then it wouldn't seem like they have Schizophrenia or Schizoaffective Disorder but in most cases all these criteria are not met. Also not everyone in a group home had to have Schizophrenia or Schizoaffective disorder. The people in the house I work at have one or the other.

Nah neither of them take medications. they're both alcoholics and potheads and one of them doesn't have a steady grip on reality. For example, he wanted to spange up enough money to pay for a plane ticket so he could live in kentucky. If you've read the booke The Catcher and the Rye, he's kind of like Holden