Home Recording Music and Bands

[theshuttlecocks]

I figured as my amp thread in the music forum got a nice recording based debate going it would be worth compiling our knowledge (or lack of it in my case) into one thread; something that will be useful not just to those recording punk, but recording music in general.

I thought I'd start things off with what I've learned. Firstly patience is the most important asset to anyone who thinks they can sit down to record and mix a song. Secondly, it's as much about experimenting as it is about learning from others.

Head over to my profile and you can hear a song I recorded about a year and a half ago with crappy equipment to what I have now. I know it's not professional quality, but it's good enough for a demo and I learnt a lot recording it. I'll go through how I recorded it and what I used. It was by no means ideal, but as it was my starting point I may as well start this thrad with it.

The Gear

Line 6 Tone Port - Lets you connect your guitar or similar to your computer via USB. Comes with amp modelling software
T-Bone mics - budget mics that I don't really recommend, as you WILL have to upgrade these. I found them on http://www.thomann.de and bought one snare mic, and kick mic and a couple of overheads.

"Vintage" (eg OLD) Shure SM58 - My dad is drummer and occasionally sings. When his band gave it up after 40+ years I got this vocal mic.

"vintage" (eg OLD) Laney PA system - again from my dad, I'll explain how this came in handy later. Has 5 mic inputs

COmputer - It was about 5 years old at the time. Pentium 4, 512mb Ram.

Cubase SX - record your tunes onto this program

Amp Modelling software - makes your guitar sound like it's being played through a marshall stack.


Guitars

So I set up Cubase, set the metronome at the desired tempo, plugged in the guitar and recorded. The amp modelling software makes it a lot easier to get a decent sound, but most people who play or record music will know it's all fake.

I recorded a guitar track and panned it left, and then recorded a second and panned it right. It's better to record two tracks then copy and paste as perfectly matched guitars sound unnatural.

Bass was done in a similar fashion and panned only slightly right.

Drums

This is where it more difficult.

I set up the overhead mics in a way to try and pick up the cymbals and toms. There are numerous methods for recording drums using minimal mics and the oh's are the key. Look up RecorderMan and Glyn Johns method for examples; I wish I had before doing this.
I then miced the kick. Probably about six inches away from the skin and slightly to the left. I think I only chose this by going on where you often see holes in kick drum skins.

The snare I miced on top, just near the edge. After testing I realised it didn't sound "snarey" enough, so I grabbed the SM58 and miced the bottom to get more of the snare wires.

Now I got these mics going into the computer by putting them all into the old PA and using a jack to connect a the headphone out to the toneport.

I hit record, did a few takes and got what you can hear.

vocals

This was stressful. All I remember is using the SM58 and a lot of the effects built into Cubase to get it to sound like it is.

The Issues

This was by no means ideal. The guitars sound a little fake and could probably do with a another track on the left and right spaced further out to beef it up a bit.

The bass is a bit muddy, I should have eq'd it a bit better for clarity.

The drums, recorded the way I did essentially leave you with a mono recording. When pros record drums you'll notice that that drums sounds like they are coming from different speakers. This is because each mic used is coming through as an individual sound wave, meaning each mic can be panned. If you've never really noticed this listen to The Offsprings cover of "Smash It Up" by the Damned, there's a drum fill in this where you can clearly hear the panning.

My drums of course are all panned slightly left so the bleed into the left. What I really should have done is made a copy and panned one left and one right, I think that MAY have sounded better.

Vocals take a lot of work. I figured that you'd want a natural sound, little messing, WRONG. You need to add reverb and all sorts to get the sound you're looking for. This is nothing against the singer, it's just the way it is.

What I've done Since and what I've learned

I've resarched and bought better mics, a Presonus FP10 which allows me to record 8 inputs at once and have them appear on Cubase as individual tracks and I've done a lot of practice recordings.

Practice recordings have shown me a lot.

Guitars sound better recorded through a real amp. I tried some recordings where I had a jack going straight from the amps output to the FP10, close miced it near the edge of the speaker and had a second mic further back and when these three signals are mixed they sound fat and alive. They still need a little bit of tweaking but it's much better.

It's ok to amp model the bass. It seems the opposite is true for Bass. Trying to get clarity and a deep rhythmic tone is too time consuming and amp modelling within a mix of real guitars doesn't sound so obvious.

There are few rules when it concerns drums. I've tried the recorderman method since and it doesn't always work. It picked up great snare and kick, but next to no cymbals. It's best to mix and match styles to find what works.
You also need to phase reverse the under snare mic if you choose to double mic the snare. on Cubase you have the option for this so it's straightforward. Otherwise you made need to do a bit of re-wiring. This phase reversal is all to do with conflicting signals and sounds and I don't claim to understand it; all I know is it makes a difference.

Above all, the ultimate thing I've learned is this: Everything sounds shit when you first listen back. Ignore your thoughts when you first record something. If you're getting a clear sound you're onto a winner. Feel free to mix and play once you've recorded something, but save it and listen again tomorrow. Each listen after a nights sleep makes a tune sound better and you'll only undo some of the things you did and improve the overall sound even more.

There are so many more things I could mention here, but I've written enough. Hopefully it'll get everyone sharing ideas and I'll learn some all important recording techniques.

[ChrisJones]

I'm the wrong person to talk about this cuz I hate recording.

All I can say is do the best with what ya got. And don't kid yourself. If it sounds like shit, nobody is going to like your band except your friends.

[theshuttlecocks]

I'm the wrong person to talk about this cuz I hate recording.

All I can say is do the best with what ya got. And don't kid yourself. If it sounds like shit, nobody is going to like your band except your friends.

Well these's some motivation for anyone thinking of starting a band.

[WreckedBass]

My band is starting on the recordings for our upcoming album in a few weeks.

We will start out by recording a guitar direct in. This guitar will be used when recording the other instruments, so that we know where in the song we are.

Then we record the drums. I'm not 100% shure how we will set up the mics, but my idea so far is 2 overhaed mics (1 right over the snaredrum, and one over the drummers right shoulder), 1 bass drum mic, and a snaredrum mic or two.

When the drums are recorded, we will record guitar and bass through mic'ed up amps.

Lastly vocals and smaller details (solo's etc.) will be recorded.


We wil lbe using Cubase 5, and i haven't worked alot with it yet, so i prepared for a massive ammount of work.

[theshuttlecocks]

My band is starting on the recordings for our upcoming album in a few weeks.

We will start out by recording a guitar direct in. This guitar will be used when recording the other instruments, so that we know where in the song we are.

Then we record the drums. I'm not 100% shure how we will set up the mics, but my idea so far is 2 overhaed mics (1 right over the snaredrum, and one over the drummers right shoulder), 1 bass drum mic, and a snaredrum mic or two.

When the drums are recorded, we will record guitar and bass through mic'ed up amps.

Lastly vocals and smaller details (solo's etc.) will be recorded.


We wil lbe using Cubase 5, and i haven't worked alot with it yet, so i prepared for a massive ammount of work.

Yeah I record a rough track to record everything else from, mainly because I do a lot of demoing on my own. It does seem that my overheads don't pick up my toms too great too, so the idea of doing rhythm guitar, bass and drums all at once (which i was thinking of doing) is going to go out the window.

The drum set up sounds like it's based on the Recordman method; if it works then go for it, but I tried it last week and it didn't pick up my crash cymbals too great; I think it's my set up though. I'm using a small kit at the moment due to space, and I keep everything close together.

Are you recording and mixing yourselves? If so (and you probably know this) don't do any mixing at the end of a day of recording; everything will sound like shit after all the work.

When it's done post some stuff up, I'd love to hear it.

[WreckedBass]

Yea. It's all DIY ;) And i agree! Mixing is best to do when you have cleared your head.

The drums setup is based on the recordman setup, yes.
I'm not worried about the mics picking up the cymbals. The room we are recording in is a reahearsal room/studio that i have in my basement. We recorded some jaming last weekend, with only the mics that we use for singing, and placed where they would be if we were singing in them. The whole drumkit was picked up great.

I'll put some recordings up, maybe some work in progress. But i don't expect the project to be over before summer.

[theshuttlecocks]

Yea. It's all DIY ;) And i agree! Mixing is best to do when you have cleared your head.

The drums setup is based on the recordman setup, yes.
I'm not worried about the mics picking up the cymbals. The room we are recording in is a reahearsal room/studio that i have in my basement. We recorded some jaming last weekend, with only the mics that we use for singing, and placed where they would be if we were singing in them. The whole drumkit was picked up great.

I'll put some recordings up, maybe some work in progress. But i don't expect the project to be over before summer.

Wow I thought I took it serious. Once my band get a steady guitarist I reckon we'll get the recording a mixing done for our demo in about a month. Although this demo will only be used to get gigs etc.

[WreckedBass]

I know it's quite some time, but since it includes learning the guitarist to play guitar, learning the drummer to play drums and learning the producer to mix the songs i think it's going to be a tight schedule :D

[theshuttlecocks]

I know it's quite some time, but since it includes learning the guitarist to play guitar, learning the drummer to play drums and learning the producer to mix the songs i think it's going to be a tight schedule :D

Fair point then! That's the best part of DIY-ing it though, you're not on schedule. My last band we did some recording and just didn't have time to finish the mix, and what could have sounded great sounded awful; which is why I've invested the time in to learning this stuff.

[WreckedBass]

Yea. Well, we do have a schedule, but it's made be us selves, and we will not release crap (again).. But damn i/we hope it's done for the festival(s) in summer. But i think we will manage to get it made :)

[Suicidal Punk]

I'm the wrong person to talk about this cuz I hate recording.

All I can say is do the best with what ya got. And don't kid yourself. If it sounds like shit, nobody is going to like your band except your friends.

Actually, I liked it.

[theshuttlecocks]

Actually, I liked it.

What did you like?

[Suicidal Punk]

What did you like?

The song on your profile.

[theshuttlecocks]

The song on your profile.

oh cheers! I don't think it's our best, but it's the only thing recorded at a decent level.

[Suicidal Punk]

oh cheers! I don't think it's our best, but it's the only thing recorded at a decent level.

Haha we recorded a song with my band (we didn't have drummer so we used a cheap software) Here ya go, give it a listen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxsPpK_9NKg

[theshuttlecocks]

I liked that! I don't suppose you used Cubase to record it?

[urananus]

OK. This is my home set up

Equipment.
Apple Mac book with Logic Express software.
Alesis monitors (can't remember which ones)
Senheiser HD 25 headphones
(input) I'm using a borrowed Yamaha 16 channel USB mixer
altho I've had one of these on order for f*cking months now
http://www.alesis.com/io26
Behringer 8 output headphone mixer
4 sets of cheap Behringer headphones.
Samson 8 piece drum mic set
Samson Q7 vocal mics (these ain't as good as SM58's but still pretty good and a helluva lot cheaper).
Izotope Ozone mastering software.

Amps
Marshall VS Valvestate 100 watt head and old Marshall 2 X 12 cab
Ashdown Bass combo, I think it's about 200 watts.
Drums Pearl Export kit, I've had it about 25 years and it's a bit f*cked if the truth be told.

Recording.
I'm not an expert just an enthusiastic amateur. So this is just stuff I've picked up.

Guitars for best result use multiple layers ie record the same guitar part over and over again and then mix them together to get a big fat sound. It's better if you mic the speakers. But sometimes mixing live guitar sound with amp modelling can produce a "best of both world effect".

I prefer having the band play live to record the drums, having guitars and drums DI'd through the mixing desk and then returned through headphones (speakers unplugged). So all ya get is the drums and no bleed.

Bass, simplsk - DI the bass.

Drums. Are a nightmare. Firstly you need a drummer who can keep the same beat and at the same (or at least very similar) volume. I hate when drummers start tickling the snare drum as the only solution for this is Mad compression. If ya wanna pan your drums then you need to mic up every single drum - so - kick, snare, hi hat, tom1, tom2, tom 3, left overhead, right overhead. Even then mixing drums is really difficult and if I'm honest something i'm still trying to master.

One useful trick tho' - Bus your kick drum signal to two auxiliaries ad default compression to both auxiliaries. Then severely over compress one of them (play with the sliders). The over compressed aux kick drum should end up all slap and no boom where as the other aux should be a reasonable (if your defaults are any good) sounding normal kick drum. Mix the two together and you'll get a kick drum with extra punch.

You can do this with snare too.

Mixing. Don't put your left and right overhead drums on the far left and right pan. For simple results keep your drums tight and towards the centre of the mix (where drums are normally on stage) put the guitar/s and bass outside of the drums ie panned further left and right. With lead vocals straight down the middle. This doesn't help with getting that wide panning on the toms, in truth I'm not really sure how you achieve that. Maybe they bus sections of the tom track out to auxiliaries and wide pan the drum rolls, almost as an overdub.

If possible pan the bass guitar the opposite way to the kick drum ie if your kick drum is slightly left put the bass guitar out on the right.

EQ: Us shelf fliter EQs on guitar, take out the bottom end of the guitar sound. I know it sounds like you are making the guitars trebly but thats what bass guitar is for. It may also be an idea to take out the top end of the bass so that the bass and guitars are clearly on seperate frequency ranges and not overlapping (at all or at least quite as much). Similar can be done with bass guitar to take out the frequency that it shares with the kick drum, altho this ain't as easy as it sounds.

[theshuttlecocks]

OK. This is my home set up

Equipment.
Apple Mac book with Logic Express software.
Alesis monitors (can't remember which ones)
Senheiser HD 25 headphones
(input) I'm using a borrowed Yamaha 16 channel USB mixer
altho I've had one of these on order for f*cking months now
http://www.alesis.com/io26
Behringer 8 output headphone mixer
4 sets of cheap Behringer headphones.
Samson 8 piece drum mic set
Samson Q7 vocal mics (these ain't as good as SM58's but still pretty good and a helluva lot cheaper).
Izotope Ozone mastering software.

Amps
Marshall VS Valvestate 100 watt head and old Marshall 2 X 12 cab
Ashdown Bass combo, I think it's about 200 watts.
Drums Pearl Export kit, I've had it about 25 years and it's a bit f*cked if the truth be told.

Recording.
I'm not an expert just an enthusiastic amateur. So this is just stuff I've picked up.

Guitars for best result use multiple layers ie record the same guitar part over and over again and then mix them together to get a big fat sound. It's better if you mic the speakers. But sometimes mixing live guitar sound with amp modelling can produce a "best of both world effect".

I prefer having the band play live to record the drums, having guitars and drums DI'd through the mixing desk and then returned through headphones (speakers unplugged). So all ya get is the drums and no bleed.

Bass, simplsk - DI the bass.

Drums. Are a nightmare. Firstly you need a drummer who can keep the same beat and at the same (or at least very similar) volume. I hate when drummers start tickling the snare drum as the only solution for this is Mad compression. If ya wanna pan your drums then you need to mic up every single drum - so - kick, snare, hi hat, tom1, tom2, tom 3, left overhead, right overhead. Even then mixing drums is really difficult and if I'm honest something i'm still trying to master.

One useful trick tho' - Bus your kick drum signal to two auxiliaries ad default compression to both auxiliaries. Then severely over compress one of them (play with the sliders). The over compressed aux kick drum should end up all slap and no boom where as the other aux should be a reasonable (if your defaults are any good) sounding normal kick drum. Mix the two together and you'll get a kick drum with extra punch.

You can do this with snare too.

Mixing. Don't put your left and right overhead drums on the far left and right pan. For simple results keep your drums tight and towards the centre of the mix (where drums are normally on stage) put the guitar/s and bass outside of the drums ie panned further left and right. With lead vocals straight down the middle. This doesn't help with getting that wide panning on the toms, in truth I'm not really sure how you achieve that. Maybe they bus sections of the tom track out to auxiliaries and wide pan the drum rolls, almost as an overdub.

If possible pan the bass guitar the opposite way to the kick drum ie if your kick drum is slightly left put the bass guitar out on the right.

EQ: Us shelf fliter EQs on guitar, take out the bottom end of the guitar sound. I know it sounds like you are making the guitars trebly but thats what bass guitar is for. It may also be an idea to take out the top end of the bass so that the bass and guitars are clearly on seperate frequency ranges and not overlapping (at all or at least quite as much). Similar can be done with bass guitar to take out the frequency that it shares with the kick drum, altho this ain't as easy as it sounds.


A few questions:

What is the Samson kick drum mic called? I've got Co2s for my overheads and they're amazing, but I've had a tough time finding the right placement for them (recorderman method picked up too much snare and kick, and not alot else). I've only got a cheapo kick mic.

When you say bus the kick to two auxilaries what do you mean? I could record two copies of the kick at once using cubase (have two audio tracks picking up the same mic input), is that what you mean?

Do you have any examples of your mixing, particularly interested in drums. I'd never tried putting the overheads within the guitars.

My plan was to do the following with my "proper" recordings.

Guitars: two mics on the amp and a modelled track on each side. The right side being the main track, the left side to beef it up (possibly use more of the distant mic on the amp and create some ambience with the amp modelled guitar on the left). I'd probably set the right in 60's range. The left a little further.

Bass: Panned just to the left (about 26-29 on the slider) DI'd either through my bass amp as it has a line out or using amp modelling.

Vox: Panned centre, a bit of verb. Backing vox panned on left and right, probably closer than the guitars.

Drums:
Kick - on the right, same amount as bass
Snare - left - between bass and guitar
Rack tom - left just a bit further than the snare
Floor tom - Right, between kick and guitar, probably the same amount, or just a little less than the rack tom.
Ohs - panned furtherest out, almost like walling off the sound.

[urananus]

A few questions:

What is the Samson kick drum mic called? I've got Co2s for my overheads and they're amazing, but I've had a tough time finding the right placement for them (recorderman method picked up too much snare and kick, and not alot else). I've only got a cheapo kick mic.

When you say bus the kick to two auxilaries what do you mean? I could record two copies of the kick at once using cubase (have two audio tracks picking up the same mic input), is that what you mean?

Do you have any examples of your mixing, particularly interested in drums. I'd never tried putting the overheads within the guitars.

My plan was to do the following with my "proper" recordings.

Guitars: two mics on the amp and a modelled track on each side. The right side being the main track, the left side to beef it up (possibly use more of the distant mic on the amp and create some ambience with the amp modelled guitar on the left). I'd probably set the right in 60's range. The left a little further.

Bass: Panned just to the left (about 26-29 on the slider) DI'd either through my bass amp as it has a line out or using amp modelling.

Vox: Panned centre, a bit of verb. Backing vox panned on left and right, probably closer than the guitars.

Drums:
Kick - on the right, same amount as bass
Snare - left - between bass and guitar
Rack tom - left just a bit further than the snare
Floor tom - Right, between kick and guitar, probably the same amount, or just a little less than the rack tom.
Ohs - panned furtherest out, almost like walling off the sound.

Everything on my music player was recorded in the garage by me. I don't consider any of it to be anything close to perfect, like you I'm going through the learning curve. Two songs "Dan the Fan" and "Mp3 Killed the Video star" where recorded really quickly as rough demos, the other 3 I spent a bit more time on.

I'll post and try n answer your questions a little later when I've had time to think about them.

[urananus]

The Samson Kick drum mic is called a Q Kick drum, they do a Q snare and Q tom mic as well. I usually place mine on the blanket inside the bass drum about a couple of inches from the skin but a bit to the side of where the beater actually connects with the skin.

I've heard stories of people using two mics on the kick one on close mic on the front of the skin near to where the beater hits (to get a bit of punch) and one inside or in front of the drum for a bassier thump. I only have one kick mic so haven't tried this. But I guess the logic is you can mix the two separate elements of the drum more easily. Same goes for snare. You can mic the top and bottom to get punch from one mic and snap from the other.

However if you are going to use two mics on one drum you may need to reverse phase one of them when you mix. I don't know where reverse phase is on cubase, on Logic you add an extra gain insert and that has a reverse phase option (If you want me to explain reverse phasing just ask - I don't want to clutter this post with something that may be un necessary)

Re: Buses and Auxiliaries. Yes you could achieve the same thing by recording the kick drum to two tracks or even copying and pasting it to a second track. I think the advantage of using buses is processing speed/file size/memory etc. Using auxiliaries effectively just plays the recorded drum through two auxiliary tracks without duplicating the file.



You should at least play with buses and auxiliaries at some time as I'm sure this is where the pros make a lot of the magic happen, altho as i've said I'm not an expert I only learned about them a few months ago. In Logic, on the mixing desk you have inserts (compressors, amp modeling, noise gates etc etc) and outputs, the outputs open a menu for buses, you select a bus eg bus 1 and send it to auxiliary 1 (think of the bus as a real bus as in "the wheels on the bus go round and round" and your sound file as the passenger and think of auxiliary one as the bus stop). So you've sent your file on a little journey to aux 1. In logic if you select a bus it automatically creates an auxiliary (i don't know how they work in Cubase but they must be there somewhere)

This could be useful for guitars too (you said you wanted to double up the guitar track) you could just bus the guitar track to an auxiliary the simply pan your original one way and your aux the other.

Edit: Just in case you missed the post above, all the songs on my profile page where recorded in the garage, some are better than others for various reasons.

[theshuttlecocks]

The Samson Kick drum mic is called a Q Kick drum, they do a Q snare and Q tom mic as well. I usually place mine on the blanket inside the bass drum about a couple of inches from the skin but a bit to the side of where the beater actually connects with the skin.

I've heard stories of people using two mics on the kick one on close mic on the front of the skin near to where the beater hits (to get a bit of punch) and one inside or in front of the drum for a bassier thump. I only have one kick mic so haven't tried this. But I guess the logic is you can mix the two separate elements of the drum more easily. Same goes for snare. You can mic the top and bottom to get punch from one mic and snap from the other.

However if you are going to use two mics on one drum you may need to reverse phase one of them when you mix. I don't know where reverse phase is on cubase, on Logic you add an extra gain insert and that has a reverse phase option (If you want me to explain reverse phasing just ask - I don't want to clutter this post with something that may be un necessary)

Re: Buses and Auxiliaries. Yes you could achieve the same thing by recording the kick drum to two tracks or even copying and pasting it to a second track. I think the advantage of using buses is processing speed/file size/memory etc. Using auxiliaries effectively just plays the recorded drum through two auxiliary tracks without duplicating the file.



You should at least play with buses and auxiliaries at some time as I'm sure this is where the pros make a lot of the magic happen, altho as i've said I'm not an expert I only learned about them a few months ago. In Logic, on the mixing desk you have inserts (compressors, amp modeling, noise gates etc etc) and outputs, the outputs open a menu for buses, you select a bus eg bus 1 and send it to auxiliary 1 (think of the bus as a real bus as in "the wheels on the bus go round and round" and your sound file as the passenger and think of auxiliary one as the bus stop). So you've sent your file on a little journey to aux 1. In logic if you select a bus it automatically creates an auxiliary (i don't know how they work in Cubase but they must be there somewhere)

This could be useful for guitars too (you said you wanted to double up the guitar track) you could just bus the guitar track to an auxiliary the simply pan your original one way and your aux the other.

Edit: Just in case you missed the post above, all the songs on my profile page where recorded in the garage, some are better than others for various reasons.

Cool, I'll have a listen to the tracks in a bit.

I double mic the snare and reverse the phase anyway, it's def something I'd recommend as it's almost like controling how much of the snare wires you get. The phase reverse on Cubase is easy to find (for those who need to know), just select the actual track, right click, choose process and phase reverse.

I'll have to look into the kick mic too, as mine is a bit dull.

Another thing that should probably be emphasised in this topic is if you are recording and mixing a track IT CAN TAKE A LONG FUCKING TIME. I recorded my drums again this Sunday, had a listen today, and where as I originally thought I'd made improvements, I'd actually made things worse. I went back to the original drums and I've managed to make a huge improvement.

All I need to figure out now is how to get the toms to pick up more without micing them. I want to get the best sound with five mics as possibly, so I can use the 3 remaining inputs for guitar and bass (2 for guitar, 1 for bass) when I find a secure guitarist for my band. I hope that recording us all together then overdubbing more guitar and vox will give us a full, live sound.
If not I'll record it all individually.

[theshuttlecocks]

Mate, your songs are fucking wicked. I love them. Peg Leg Pete reminds me a little of a band called Pickled DIck, you heard of them? Don't know if they ever made it up to St Albans. I think S-Laughter is my favourite though.

[WreckedBass]

I just remembered a little trick. When you record DI, use a DI-box. It makes it sound better.

For bass, use a bass with active pickups, they sound better DI too.

[urananus]

Mate, your songs are fucking wicked. I love them. Peg Leg Pete reminds me a little of a band called Pickled DIck, you heard of them? Don't know if they ever made it up to St Albans. I think S-Laughter is my favourite though.

Funny enough Richie, the guy who played guitar and sang Peg Leg Pete is best mates with Pickled Dick, he was even asked to join them but couldn't because he's married and has a job, two kids and a mortgage. I think he has performed with them as a guest a couple of times. He jams with me n the bassist sometimes and is quite possibly the most talented f*cker I've ever met and he's a really nice bloke as well, what a c*nt.

S-Laughter is the latest thing we recorded and I think the drums are a little clearer than on the other songs, still not crystal but defo an improvement. I think you are like me, I see DIY as a challenge to produce as good a quality recordings as I can with limited equipment and funds. My aim is to produce something as high quality as a big budget Green Day album in my garage on a tiny budget through sheer determination. I realize I've a long long way to go but every improvement is a step towards it and a little DIY victory.

I don't like DIY that rests on it's laurels and feels it doesn't really need to try.

Edit: PS see if you can spot where the drums go out of time on Peg Leg Pete. I really f*cked up the drums on that one meaning Richie and Maff had to record to a track that skips a half a beat.

PS: I love this thread.

[theshuttlecocks]

Funny enough Richie, the guy who played guitar and sang Peg Leg Pete is best mates with Pickled Dick, he was even asked to join them but couldn't because he's married and has a job, two kids and a mortgage. I think he has performed with them as a guest a couple of times. He jams with me n the bassist sometimes and is quite possibly the most talented f*cker I've ever met and he's a really nice bloke as well, what a c*nt.

S-Laughter is the latest thing we recorded and I think the drums are a little clearer than on the other songs, still not crystal but defo an improvement. I think you are like me, I see DIY as a challenge to produce as good a quality recordings as I can with limited equipment and funds. My aim is to produce something as high quality as a big budget Green Day album in my garage on a tiny budget through sheer determination. I realize I've a long long way to go but every improvement is a step towards it and a little DIY victory.

I don't like DIY that rests on it's laurels and feels it doesn't really need to try.

Edit: PS see if you can spot where the drums go out of time on Peg Leg Pete. I really f*cked up the drums on that one meaning Richie and Maff had to record to a track that skips a half a beat.

PS: I love this thread.

Wow, that's weird that you know Pickled Dick. We played a good few gigs with them, Portsmouth was the first time we met them, great guys.

Didn't notice the drums go out of time, but I'll have a listen now. It's funny you mention Green Day, jsut this morning something from Kerplunk came on and I thought "If I can just get the drums to sound like that I'll be happy" I see our aims are a little different!

I'm going to re-skin and tune up my toms this weekend. I've got studio rings on them and they're tuned great, but I think if I let them ring out a bit they'll pick up on Recordings more.

I'm actually quite happy with my latest mix of the drums for one of my tracks. When I'm not so deathly tired I'm going to note down the specifics, apply to the other tracks and I think they'll just be good enough to put some vox on when the singer comes over. once they've got vox I'll put another song on my profile.

[A_carcass]

Yeah alot of my stuff is DIY. Just my laptop, a bass, a guitar, a bass amp and an mt2 distortion pedal by boss. direct in. I write the drums on guitar pro and convert them to MP3. It's all good stuff you know? but it just sounds crappy.

[urananus]

Yeah alot of my stuff is DIY. Just my laptop, a bass, a guitar, a bass amp and an mt2 distortion pedal by boss. direct in. I write the drums on guitar pro and convert them to MP3. It's all good stuff you know? but it just sounds crappy.

What software and soundcard do you use ? I think a lot of the time the problem is simply practice, the more you record the more you learn and the better it starts to sound. I know it sounds obvious but it's true.

Could you define "sounds crappy" someone may have some ideas how ya could improve it

[urananus]

Wow, that's weird that you know Pickled Dick. We played a good few gigs with them, Portsmouth was the first time we met them, great guys.

Didn't notice the drums go out of time, but I'll have a listen now. It's funny you mention Green Day, jsut this morning something from Kerplunk came on and I thought "If I can just get the drums to sound like that I'll be happy" I see our aims are a little different!

I'm going to re-skin and tune up my toms this weekend. I've got studio rings on them and they're tuned great, but I think if I let them ring out a bit they'll pick up on Recordings more.

I'm actually quite happy with my latest mix of the drums for one of my tracks. When I'm not so deathly tired I'm going to note down the specifics, apply to the other tracks and I think they'll just be good enough to put some vox on when the singer comes over. once they've got vox I'll put another song on my profile.

I think you may get new problems if you let the drums ring too much, they could sound pingy. How are you placing your ambient mics ?

[theshuttlecocks]

I think you may get new problems if you let the drums ring too much, they could sound pingy. How are you placing your ambient mics ?

I did it Recorderman. I've played with the mixing, using your advice and home recording for drummies and everything picks up almost perfect, cept the toms.

Here's my plan for the weekend.

Set overheads up recorderman style. (samon c02's)
Mic up snare top (sm57)
mic up snare bottom (sm57 copy)
Mic up kick (t-bone budget mic)

I'll move the oh's around to try and get more toms, possibly change my kick to the other sm57 copy I've got, as they're actually pretty good.

If I can't get the toms sounding good through the mics I'll add my new drum heads and try and tune them as good as I can without my studio rings on them. Then record again to see if it sounds any better.

If things get really desperate I'll post one of my current mixes. But i'll only keep it up til you've listened to it as they still need vox and probably some real guitar (i used amp modelling software), but I need to wait to find a guitarist before I start recording proper guitar.

[A_carcass]

What software and soundcard do you use ? I think a lot of the time the problem is simply practice, the more you record the more you learn and the better it starts to sound. I know it sounds obvious but it's true.

Could you define "sounds crappy" someone may have some ideas how ya could improve it

well I kinda cleaned up the sound a bit. I just got an overdrive plug in for my computer so all I have to do is record clean then use the plug in to make it distorted instead of using my distortion pedal. Alot of it has to do with the cables I use.

[urananus]

I did it Recorderman. I've played with the mixing, using your advice and home recording for drummies and everything picks up almost perfect, cept the toms.

Here's my plan for the weekend.

Set overheads up recorderman style. (samon c02's)
Mic up snare top (sm57)
mic up snare bottom (sm57 copy)
Mic up kick (t-bone budget mic)

I'll move the oh's around to try and get more toms, possibly change my kick to the other sm57 copy I've got, as they're actually pretty good.

If I can't get the toms sounding good through the mics I'll add my new drum heads and try and tune them as good as I can without my studio rings on them. Then record again to see if it sounds any better.

If things get really desperate I'll post one of my current mixes. But i'll only keep it up til you've listened to it as they still need vox and probably some real guitar (i used amp modelling software), but I need to wait to find a guitarist before I start recording proper guitar.

A friend of mine who was a lecturer in Sound engineering swears by placing your ambients as high above the drums as you can pointing directly at the ceiling. Still placed one left and one right of the kit but with the mic stand as fully extended as it'll go, or until the mics are about an inch from the ceiling. Must admit I've not tried it, but it's probably worth a go.

[supercoolstorybro]

cubase is shit to begin with. use protools or sonar. much better programs, imo.

vinyl is the way to go, but you really cant do that d.i.y.

also, don't be afraid to record on tape, it can actually sound pretty good, and give the recordings a kinda vintage flavor. if you're gonna do this, you need a mixer, at least 7 mics, and a decent tape recorder with an input.

and you hook it up like: instruments > mics > mixer > tape recorder


and if people are too fucking ignorant to buy a tape because they think it "dead technology", then fuck em. i know plenty of bands that released cassettes and the recordings turned out fucking awesome.

[The Transmission]

cubase is shit to begin with. use protools or sonar. much better programs, imo.

vinyl is the way to go, but you really cant do that d.i.y.

also, don't be afraid to record on tape, it can actually sound pretty good, and give the recordings a kinda vintage flavor. if you're gonna do this, you need a mixer, at least 7 mics, and a decent tape recorder with an input.

and you hook it up like: instruments > mics > mixer > tape recorder


and if people are too fucking ignorant to buy a tape because they think it "dead technology", then fuck em. i know plenty of bands that released cassettes and the recordings turned out fucking awesome.

Im one of those ignorant ones who think tape is shit.I would say dont go near them if you want to produce a half decent recording

[supercoolstorybro]

Im one of those ignorant ones who think tape is shit.I would say dont go near them if you want to produce a half decent recording

i just think digital recordings sound bland. they suck the energy out of the music.

i guess tapes only work for certain genres though. like garage rock, or 80's hardcore. whenever the music's got a kinda snotty, out of control attitude.


and in the u.s. we still have a lot of cars with cassette players in them.

[theshuttlecocks]

i just think digital recordings sound bland. they suck the energy out of the music.

i guess tapes only work for certain genres though. like garage rock, or 80's hardcore. whenever the music's got a kinda snotty, out of control attitude.


and in the u.s. we still have a lot of cars with cassette players in them.

My theory for getting the energy back into digi recording is doing the rhythm tracks all together in one room, so there's bleed and you play more like it's a gig. At least that's what I'm going to try and see how it comes out.

I personally wouldn't deal with tape, as it'd require editing prior to it going to the tape, so less freedom.

Seems to me if you're going to do this on a budget and you want it to sound good you've got to go Digital, there's too much power in editing after you've recorded for small bands not to do it.

[urananus]

cubase is shit to begin with. use protools or sonar. much better programs, imo.

vinyl is the way to go, but you really cant do that d.i.y.

also, don't be afraid to record on tape, it can actually sound pretty good, and give the recordings a kinda vintage flavor. if you're gonna do this, you need a mixer, at least 7 mics, and a decent tape recorder with an input.

and you hook it up like: instruments > mics > mixer > tape recorder


and if people are too fucking ignorant to buy a tape because they think it "dead technology", then fuck em. i know plenty of bands that released cassettes and the recordings turned out fucking awesome.

The hardest part about vinyl is the mastering, you really need to pay someone who has years and years of vinyl mastering experience. If you try and master it yourself you'll.... well just don't.

Tape does have a nice warm sound, a lot of top pro studio record on digital , then mix/master to tape. But tape can cause problems as you can get drop out on the outside tracks ie the ones closest to the tapes edge, so you really don't want your kick, snare, lead vocal or shredding guitar solo on this part of the tape.

I don't think people don't buy tape because it's dead technology, it's just easier going digital and cheaper since you don't need to buy separate noise gates, EQs, compressors etc. Digital comes loaded with presets that get you started instantly where as compression ie real old style compression using auxiliaries and an out board compressor is an art that can take years to perfect. Digital has made it easier for enthusiasts with a smaller budget to get into multi tracking.

[scottstoked]

I dig this thread . . I'm always always looking for home recording tips/advice.

@ Urananus: I have a Samson Q7 mic and have read many reviews saying it actually sounds better than the SM58 ... but maybe not as solid construction-wise. Either way, great mic for the price. I recommend it to anyone on a tight recording budget.

I only record vocals and bass, so my set up is pretty simple . . .

- Delta 1010LT sound card:I got this used for a SWEET deal. This card is AWESOME. Kiss your latency issues goodbye. No need for ASIO4ALL (PC) workarounds either. A Soundblaster card can never replace one of these.

- Warwick Rockbass: Got it on sale. Not crazy about the looks of it, but it plays nice and has nice active jazz pickups for not a whole lotta $$.

- Line6 Guitarport: When I first started recording at home, I recorded bass AND vocals through this. I don't really use this anymore, but it was a cheap way of getting the job done.

- Samson Q7 dynamic mic: A SM58 clone, but costs way less. Sounds good.

- CAD GXL3000 condenser mic: It's a good mic for the price, but can sound a little thin (like most cheap condensers). You can fix it with some eq, though. I'll probably reaplace it eventually.

- Behringer MIC200 tube preamp: I run my bass or vocals into it. Super cheap and can warm your sound up nicely. A lot of people say Behringer is crap, but for DIY stuff, they're great and don't cost big $$.

- Behringer MDX2600 compressor: I use it to help flatten out the peaks and valleys when I have to sing loud and aggressive. Bought it used for $50.

- DIY Vocal Booth: Moving blankets tacked to the ceiling to form a booth. Works ok for my purposes.

- Software: Sony Acid to lay down Ezdrummer tracks and record bass. Adobe Audition to record vocals and mix.

Oh, and I got a pair of M-Audio AV40 monitors for Christmas. I love them. They don't color the sound. My mixing skills suck, so these definitely help me see where I'm going wrong.

[theshuttlecocks]

I dig this thread . . I'm always always looking for home recording tips/advice.

@ Urananus: I have a Samson Q7 mic and have read many reviews saying it actually sounds better than the SM58 ... but maybe not as solid construction-wise. Either way, great mic for the price. I recommend it to anyone on a tight recording budget.

I only record vocals and bass, so my set up is pretty simple . . .

- Delta 1010LT sound card:I got this used for a SWEET deal. This card is AWESOME. Kiss your latency issues goodbye. No need for ASIO4ALL (PC) workarounds either. A Soundblaster card can never replace one of these.

- Warwick Rockbass: Got it on sale. Not crazy about the looks of it, but it plays nice and has nice active jazz pickups for not a whole lotta $$.

- Line6 Guitarport: When I first started recording at home, I recorded bass AND vocals through this. I don't really use this anymore, but it was a cheap way of getting the job done.

- Samson Q7 dynamic mic: A SM58 clone, but costs way less. Sounds good.

- CAD GXL3000 condenser mic: It's a good mic for the price, but can sound a little thin (like most cheap condensers). You can fix it with some eq, though. I'll probably reaplace it eventually.

- Behringer MIC200 tube preamp: I run my bass or vocals into it. Super cheap and can warm your sound up nicely. A lot of people say Behringer is crap, but for DIY stuff, they're great and don't cost big $$.

- Behringer MDX2600 compressor: I use it to help flatten out the peaks and valleys when I have to sing loud and aggressive. Bought it used for $50.

- DIY Vocal Booth: Moving blankets tacked to the ceiling to form a booth. Works ok for my purposes.

- Software: Sony Acid to lay down Ezdrummer tracks and record bass. Adobe Audition to record vocals and mix.

Oh, and I got a pair of M-Audio AV40 monitors for Christmas. I love them. They don't color the sound. My mixing skills suck, so these definitely help me see where I'm going wrong.

Glad to hear that you like the thread, and that you like Samson mics. I've got a pair of Co2's for drum overheads. If you ever move into recording acoustic drums I recommend them. I think the Q7 may be my next purchase.

I had a Guitarport or similar by Line 6 too. I recorded all my instruments on it first time round. It's a good way to get into it.

Do you have any recordings online for us to hear?

[scottstoked]

Glad to hear that you like the thread, and that you like Samson mics. I've got a pair of Co2's for drum overheads. If you ever move into recording acoustic drums I recommend them. I think the Q7 may be my next purchase.

I had a Guitarport or similar by Line 6 too. I recorded all my instruments on it first time round. It's a good way to get into it.

Do you have any recordings online for us to hear?

On my profile page there is one original and two covers. The guitars were recorded by a pal of mine in PA and emailed to me.

Reunion (original):
- bass recorded into Sony Acid via Guitarport.
- drums via EzDrummer in Sony Acid.
- vocals recorded in Adobe Audition via AT2020 USB mic (I have since sold it).

Bullet (Misfits cover and my first mix ever):
- bass into Sony Acid via Guitarport
- drums a la EzDrummer in Acid
- vocals recorded into Audition via Guitarport with Samson Q7

Livin' in the City (Fear cover):
- bass into Acid via Guitarport
- EzDrummer drums in Acid
- vocals in Audition via MIC200 preamp into soundcard with CAD GXL3000 mic.

All were mixed in Adobe Audition after. I tend to struggle with getting stuff to sit in the mix well, but I'm slowly learning!

[WreckedBass]

I spend all of saturday in the studio recording drums. They turned out great.
I have a drum mic kit, from the local music stores own brand (cheap china gear). We used 2 of the tom mics for a recorderman setup, and then we miced up the bassdrum. I will take som pics some day, i think.

Today we messed a little bit with the guitar. But that is damn hard. How do you guys do?
- How many mics? Which?
- How do you set up your overdrive/distortion pedals?

[theshuttlecocks]

I spend all of saturday in the studio recording drums. They turned out great.
I have a drum mic kit, from the local music stores own brand (cheap china gear). We used 2 of the tom mics for a recorderman setup, and then we miced up the bassdrum. I will take som pics some day, i think.

Today we messed a little bit with the guitar. But that is damn hard. How do you guys do?
- How many mics? Which?
- How do you set up your overdrive/distortion pedals?

I've only experimented with recording guitar once, but I did it across three tracks.
Track 1 - Direct Out from the Amp. This get's a very gritty tone, but not too much bass.
Track 2 - Close mic. Used a Shure SM57 on the outer edge of the cone which picks up a lot of the warmth, a fair amount of tone and is probably what you want the bulk of the sound to come from.
Track 3 - Ambient mic. Not sure what mic I used, but it was placed further back from the amp to pick up "the room". Basically it was an attempt to give it a more live sound.

Overall I was pleased with this, but it may have been overkill. Really I think 2 tracks, without the Direct Out would probably be fine. Look up recording guitar online because all my experimenting came from the info I read. I wish I could remember the sites, because there are a few really good ones out there.

[theshuttlecocks]

On my profile page there is one original and two covers. The guitars were recorded by a pal of mine in PA and emailed to me.

Reunion (original):
- bass recorded into Sony Acid via Guitarport.
- drums via EzDrummer in Sony Acid.
- vocals recorded in Adobe Audition via AT2020 USB mic (I have since sold it).

Bullet (Misfits cover and my first mix ever):
- bass into Sony Acid via Guitarport
- drums a la EzDrummer in Acid
- vocals recorded into Audition via Guitarport with Samson Q7

Livin' in the City (Fear cover):
- bass into Acid via Guitarport
- EzDrummer drums in Acid
- vocals in Audition via MIC200 preamp into soundcard with CAD GXL3000 mic.

All were mixed in Adobe Audition after. I tend to struggle with getting stuff to sit in the mix well, but I'm slowly learning!

Those songs sounded great, it's almost tempted me to get EzDrummer; I just can't bring myself to fake my own instrument. It sounds fucking epic though!

Those tracks are really well done though, I might start using them as reference points!

[scottstoked]

Those songs sounded great, it's almost tempted me to get EzDrummer; I just can't bring myself to fake my own instrument. It sounds fucking epic though!

Those tracks are really well done though, I might start using them as reference points!

Thanks! . . . I'd much rather jam with a real drummer, but unfortunately, EzDrummer has become a necessary evil for me since moving to a small farm town. I don't know any drummers here :/ The good thing about EZ is that all the drums are real samples. I'm just not that great at adding in the little flourishes you get from a real drummer.

[theshuttlecocks]

Thanks! . . . I'd much rather jam with a real drummer, but unfortunately, EzDrummer has become a necessary evil for me since moving to a small farm town. I don't know any drummers here :/

Simple Solution: Move to Stoke-on-Trent in the UK. I need a guitarist, you need a drummer. Problem solved!! cheer(*

[scottstoked]

Simple Solution: Move to Stoke-on-Trent in the UK. I need a guitarist, you need a drummer. Problem solved!! cheer(*

Haha ... always wanted to check out the UK ... cheer(*

[urananus]

Haha ... always wanted to check out the UK ... cheer(*


Been off the forums for a few days. Really like the vocals on your Misfits cover. The EZ drums sound pretty good too. Welcome to recording nerd corner. par*#

[urananus]

I spend all of saturday in the studio recording drums. They turned out great.
I have a drum mic kit, from the local music stores own brand (cheap china gear). We used 2 of the tom mics for a recorderman setup, and then we miced up the bassdrum. I will take som pics some day, i think.

Today we messed a little bit with the guitar. But that is damn hard. How do you guys do?
- How many mics? Which?
- How do you set up your overdrive/distortion pedals?

I sometimes DI guitar straight in then use amp modeling. Last recording I did I used my best mic (Samson Q7) and close mic'd the guitar amp. First take I recorded the guitar in stages just to make sure I got it all in time, then I did lots of retakes until I was sick to death of the song. Then I listened back a couple of days later and picked the 3 best guitar takes, then layered them next to each other in the mix to make one big guitar. I used slightly different EQ for each guitar track so one was quite bassy, one quite middley and the third more trebly. But to be honest I just f*cked about with it until I thought it sounded OK.

[scottstoked]

Been off the forums for a few days. Really like the vocals on your Misfits cover. The EZ drums sound pretty good too. Welcome to recording nerd corner. par*#

Thank you and thank you!

. . . But to be honest I just f*cked about with it until I thought it sounded OK.

Haha, I do the same thing when I try to mix a song. Then I can't remember exactly what I did ..

[urananus]

Haha, I do the same thing when I try to mix a song. Then I can't remember exactly what I did ..

Yeah the problem is that there are sooooo many differen't things you can add/take away from the sound. I have about 6 compression settings for guitar, and seemingly almost limitless EQ options, then high shelf and low pass filters or is it low shelf high pass ? I think the key to recording any instrument is to get your initial signal as good as possible so good amp sound plus good mic plus good quality cables, spend a bit of time getting the level right. etc etc

[theshuttlecocks]

I sometimes DI guitar straight in then use amp modeling. Last recording I did I used my best mic (Samson Q7) and close mic'd the guitar amp. First take I recorded the guitar in stages just to make sure I got it all in time, then I did lots of retakes until I was sick to death of the song. Then I listened back a couple of days later and picked the 3 best guitar takes, then layered them next to each other in the mix to make one big guitar. I used slightly different EQ for each guitar track so one was quite bassy, one quite middley and the third more trebly. But to be honest I just f*cked about with it until I thought it sounded OK.

This layering of guitars is probably one of the most important aspects, especially when you're not using amp software. I've never got deep enough into recording (don't see the point til I get a guitarist) to really play with proper multitracking, but from what I've read you need a min of two tracks each side to get a nice full guitar sound. Also, copy and pasting guitar tracks doesn't work as it doesn't build up the sound in the same way. It's those little differences in the takes that make it good.

[urananus]

This layering of guitars is probably one of the most important aspects, especially when you're not using amp software. I've never got deep enough into recording (don't see the point til I get a guitarist) to really play with proper multitracking, but from what I've read you need a min of two tracks each side to get a nice full guitar sound. Also, copy and pasting guitar tracks doesn't work as it doesn't build up the sound in the same way. It's those little differences in the takes that make it good.

Absolutely. I think the problem with recording guitars (and drums) is the more you learn about it the sooner you discover that there's a helluva lot more to learn about it. I heard a story about Steve Jones (Pistols) recording Never Mind the Bollocks, Jones played the guitar (wearing headphones) as a studio assistant walked around the room with an ambient mic until the mic picked up the sound as Jones wanted to hear it. I don't know if this is truth or urban myth but you can certainly see it happening. If ya can find that "sweet spot" then you make the whole process easier.

As for multi layering guitars. It does seem the only way to go if you want the guitars to sound big and powerful.

[theshuttlecocks]

Thought I'd post some useful videos

Recorderman drum method (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiFOD1EeKhQ)
Using this with a snare and a kick mic and you should be able get an accurate drum sound.

Recording Heavy Guitar excerpt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmcTocCJSVw)
The full version of this is linked in the description. It's a bit cheesey, and it focuses on metal, but it's been very useful in my attempts at recording guitar.

More amp micing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAirel-qjzQ&feature=related)
This is a very short, but useful video just to give you an idea of how multiple mics change the overall sound.

The joy of EQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaIvzbV40MM&feature=fvw)
This is in relation to drums, but is relevant to EQ in general.

Amp Modelling software - Bass (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDJAXtXuiZ8)
How I personally would deal with recording bass. DI it and use some amp software to find the perfect sound. In a mix it'd take an expert to notice it.

Couldn't find anything useful on vocals, if anyone has any to share, please do.

[scottstoked]

Thanks for the links! I'm going to check out that Amplitube software.

Here's a couple of links regarding vocals . . .

Recording vocals for a demo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1bemOGbFgY&NR=1

DIY Vocal Booth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1bemOGbFgY&NR=1

Both these videos are geared towards using condenser mics ... which are sensitive and pick up a lot of ambient room sound. Dynamic mics are a lot more forgiving if you have a less than perfect room to record vocals in.

[meh]

Gonna have to keep this thread in mind. Lot of good tips here.

[RIC]

That´s what I was thinking :rolleyes:

[theshuttlecocks]

I think if it got stickied I'd die happy. How sad is that?

(yes this was just an excuse for a bump)

[urananus]

I think if it got stickied I'd die happy. How sad is that?

(yes this was just an excuse for a bump)

I was thinking the same thing.

[urananus]

Drums

Just found a demo on my work laptop that I'd forgotten about. I'd been experimenting with drums. Anyhoo, what I did was create 2 tracks which I'd comically named "Deep Pan 1 and 2". In essence what I did was copy and paste (so duplicated) the overhead mic tracks, then (on the copies) I deleted everything except the drum rolls (round the kit ones). Then I deleted the drum rolls from the original overhead (well in truth I dropped the volume to zero on the rolls) So now I have the cymbals and general rhythm on two seperate overhead tracks and the drum rolls on two completely different tracks. Then I selected the two Deep Pan tracks, opened "automation" (On Logic there's a pan selection) and panned all the drum rolls from left to right. So what I got was a full sweeping panned drum roll from -60 to +60 (hope that makes sense) while the cymbals and rhythm all stayed in the same place. I then found that going from -60 to +60 was a bit much so experimented until I found a pan range that sounded right for the demo.

[theshuttlecocks]

Drums

Just found a demo on my work laptop that I'd forgotten about. I'd been experimenting with drums. Anyhoo, what I did was create 2 tracks which I'd comically named "Deep Pan 1 and 2". In essence what I did was copy and paste (so duplicated) the overhead mic tracks, then (on the copies) I deleted everything except the drum rolls (round the kit ones). Then I deleted the drum rolls from the original overhead (well in truth I dropped the volume to zero on the rolls) So now I have the cymbals and general rhythm on two seperate overhead tracks and the drum rolls on two completely different tracks. Then I selected the two Deep Pan tracks, opened "automation" (On Logic there's a pan selection) and panned all the drum rolls from left to right. So what I got was a full sweeping panned drum roll from -60 to +60 (hope that makes sense) while the cymbals and rhythm all stayed in the same place. I then found that going from -60 to +60 was a bit much so experimented until I found a pan range that sounded right for the demo.

Genius idea. I'm going to give this a go the next time I record (which prob wont be for a while, still on the hunt for a guitarist)

[urananus]

Genius idea. I'm going to give this a go the next time I record (which prob wont be for a while, still on the hunt for a guitarist)


Yeh I amaze myself sometimes. And I managed to bump this thread again.

[theshuttlecocks]

Yeh I amaze myself sometimes. And I managed to bump this thread again.

It's good cuz it means I can keep my mic usage down (I don't want to close mic everything) but I can still control things I want to. I'd have never thought about that. Fingers crossed I'll have reason to try it soon.

[scottstoked]

Just put together a little DIY "SE Reflexion Filter" to use for recording vocals. Not as fancy as the original . . . ie: cardboard instead of punched aluminium, but it does make a nice difference. Now I just need a new song to try it out on . . . haha

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/2554/diyvocalbooth.jpg

What I used:
- cardboard box
- cheapie 2" acoustic foam
- spare photography light stand (a cheapie mic stand would work too)
- zip ties
- clamp

I cut the box away until it formed three panels. Glued on the acoustic foam onto the panels (leaving a bit of a gap at the bottom for the clamp to hold on to). Zip tied a clamp to the light stand and clamped the filter in place. Then I placed the whole thing behind my mic and done. It works!

[theshuttlecocks]

That looks ace. It's also got me thinking about my vocal mc situation. I've got an old Shure SM58 which my dad said he bought in the 70's, which I've never checked if they had them back then. Maybe I should look into a proper vocal recording mic. Any advice?

[scottstoked]

The SM58 is a great dynamic mic and has been around forever. Lots of pros (including Bono) use it in the studio. I have a SM58 "clone", but sometimes feel like I should just pay extra and get the real deal.

Anyway, condenser mics are nice, but pick up EVERYTHING if you're recording in a room with a lot of ambient noise, reflections, etc. A mic like the SM58 is WAY more forgiving. It's also not as prone to being overloaded when you really have to yell/scream the vocals.

On my profile page there's a cover of the song Joy. I used my SM58 clone mic to record the vocals with only a pop filter in my acoustically crappy computer room (I added some compression and reverb afterwards). No blanket vocal booth. If I had done that with my condenser, you'd hear a lot more of the "room" sound.

Ah, I gotta run .. I'm getting in trouble from the gf ... if you have any questions, just ask .. .I'm still a rookie it comes to this stuff as well.

[urananus]

My new cheat method for drums.

Been experimenting over the last couple of weeks with drum sound. The problem I have (and I know some of you guys do to) is really nailing a recorded drum sound that sounds anything close to the drums in my CD collection.

I came to a few harsh conclusions 1. I don't have and can't afford the equipment so can't truly isolate individual drum sounds. 2. I'm not a great drummer, don't get me wrong I'm not a bad drummer and for live gigs I'm pretty good, but recording is a whole dif ball game. You need to be precise with your hits and metronomic with timing if you want to reap the full benefits of your digital studio later in the recording.

So whats the solution, find a way to cheat. So I started experimenting and I found two ways to cheat.

Method one. I find it hard playing to a metronome/click . I can do it but it's very difficult, very time consuming and rolls and fills can be a nightmare. So what I found was that if I recorded the guitar to the click/metronome. Then recorded the drums to the guide guitar (metronome now off) track I stayed at a constant BPM and it's easier to play along to than click click click click. You can also hear the changes from riff to verse to chorus to bridge etc etc. rather than having to sing the song in your head. This method works very well for recording live drums at a constant BPM - Tip don't forget to record a count in of some kind when you record your guitar guide.

The downside of this method is that I still don't adequately isolate the individual drums. So heres where method two comes in.

Method two. Using method one recording as a guide record bass drum only. Then record snare only. Then fills and rolls. Then hi hat or ride. Then cymbal crashes. The downside is that you lose some live feel but surprisingly not much. What you should end up with is a copy of your original drum recording but with each drum being isolated and crystal clear (you can now mute or delete the drum tracks you recorded using method one) . If you screw up a fill you just redo it until you get it right, same as dropping in a guitar solo. Because the drums are isolated perfectly Noise gates, EQ and Compression seem to work more effectively. I guess some people may have a problem with this seeing as I am not actually playing the drums as a complete kit (on final version). But then some people probably don't realise that this is done with guitars and vocals all of the time, the best bits are edited in and the mistakes are edited out.

To put it simply, I'm not aiming to record a live sound. I can do that easily. What I'm trying to do is emulate or get as close as possible to that pro CD recorded sound. I'm starting to realise that to achieve this then maybe I need to start seeing recording as a completely different animal.

I've also experimented with using method two only ie recording individual drums to the guitar guide.

Edit: What I've found and what I feared. I feared that if I over use this method then my live drums will somehow end up sounding like a drum machine. However on one song I actually wanted the drums to sound like a machine, the songs about technology taking over so I was aiming for a robotic feel on the drums. I found that no matter how hard I tried the drums still sounded organic, I guess because they are ie each drum hit is still a real drum hit. So I think my point is that you can get a much tighter (but not too tight) drum sound by doing the unthinkable and overdubbing your drums.

[theshuttlecocks]

just thought I'd bump this with some news. 1. I've got a Line 6 Po 2.0 and I'm loving it. Can't wait to get recording with it.
2. I've got a guitarist sorted and meeting a bassist next weekend, so should be recording more soon.

Stay tuned.

[theshuttlecocks]

This vid came up on Youtube, it's more for live recording, but its quite thorough.

Mic It Up: Guitar (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcD9-yQjDfM&playnext_from=TL&videos=tjagHSQPls0&feature=grec)

[urananus]

Additional to my post on drum recording/cheating. By coincidence I was listening to the radio in the car and they played a request track. It was a song by Chaka Khan that had been produced by Prince. Yeah I know it's not punk but this is about production techniques. Anyhoo, the point is I noticed that the hi hat swishes where noticeable louder/more prominent than the hi hat rhythm. It was an effect that probably wouldn't suit punk but worked very well for funk. But how did they do it ? Well I concluded they did exactly what I said in my earlier post, they recorded the hi hat twice, take one - hi hat rhythm, take two - hi hat swishes. The advantage is maximum control over the final hi hat mix.

[theshuttlecocks]

Does anyone here use Cubase as their DAW? I use it, but I don't think I know enough about it to really make the most of it.

[Halsbrand]

Last weekend we recorded some demo stuff for promoting the album we're working on. The sound is a little bit rough, because its recording live, and my studio is very small.

Anyway, i would be glad if you guys would give it a listen and a comment.
It's my first song as "producer" and i could use some feedback.
The song is called "Bodega Besvær" and is on out page.

EDIT: And yea, we know the gangvocals are out of tune, we were drunk :D

Thank you,
HALSBRAND!

[theshuttlecocks]

Last weekend we recorded some demo stuff for promoting the album we're working on. The sound is a little bit rough, because its recording live, and my studio is very small.

Anyway, i would be glad if you guys would give it a listen and a comment.
It's my first song as "producer" and i could use some feedback.
The song is called "Bodega Besvær" and is on out page.

EDIT: And yea, we know the gangvocals are out of tune, we were drunk :D

Thank you,
HALSBRAND!

Had a listen, the song is awesome. Listened to it on my crappy inbuilt laptop speakers and it sounded good, but when listening to it on proper speakers it sounded like there was more coming out of the left speaker, or maybe what has been panned to the left side is slightly louder. If it were me I'd make the guitars a little (not very much thought) more trebley as that'll give the bass a bit more space.

Bloody good job though! cheer(*

[Halsbrand]

Thanks alot!
You're probably right about the panning, haven't thought about it that way.

We had alot of trouble getting good guitar sound. So on the "real" version it will be recorded, either direct in and using a plugin. Or we will use another amp with build in distortion since the pedals our guitarist uses are fucking up the sound and making it undefined.

[theshuttlecocks]

Thanks alot!
You're probably right about the panning, haven't thought about it that way.

We had alot of trouble getting good guitar sound. So on the "real" version it will be recorded, either direct in and using a plugin. Or we will use another amp with build in distortion since the pedals our guitarist uses are fucking up the sound and making it undefined.

No worries. The best advice I can give you on guitar recording is
1. If recording an amp - less is more. You won't need as much distortion through pedals, overdrive, gain etc. because the volume will distort through the mic (or something like that)
2. Double track. Record two tracks for every guitar. Don't copy and paste the original either, as that will only make it louder. Recording a second track means there will be natural timing differences and other subtle nuances which will make it sound bigger.
3. Double the double track. Right, so you've got a rhythm guitar track that you've recorded twice and panned about 75-85 to the right. Now record the same track another two times, and pan it to the left. I usually pan it a little further left than I did right (so if right is 75, then I'd pan the left at least 80). I'd also take some of the bass out of the left track as my bass is panned slightly to the left (no more than 30 to the left) so that the bass is still clear. I'd also take the volume down on the left guitar track a little bit to ensure that the right one is what the listener hears as the "guitar".
4. Using amp modelling software. I'm all for it, but you should still record at least one track using an amp to get a more natural feel. Thnink of it like this; the guitar track recorded with software will bring clarity, but will feel flat. Record with an amp, and even if it doesn't sound as clear it will add a fullness to the sound that will make it sound bigger. In fact when I get my guitarist to come and record his parts to one of our songs I'm thinking that per guitar (ie rhythm, lead etc) I'll only have one software track, and with the rhythm guitar there will be another three amp tracks to make the rhythm sound full.

Right, I didn't intend for that to be so long, but hopefully it will help a little. Also, I'd def use either software or DI from the amp for the bass guitar, as this doesn't need to sound so full and thick. Anyway, I'm going to stop writing as this is quickly becoming an essay.

[Halsbrand]

Perfect!

We are going to record at least 2 guitars on each song depends on how much time we will have.

I have a really nice ampeg bass amp plugin for Cubase, i think i will use that for the bass and see if i can get the same punchy sound as i have on my real amp setup.


Thanks alot, i will probably be spamming this thread with questions when the recordings get serious :D

/Mikkel, HALSBRAND!

[theshuttlecocks]

Perfect!

We are going to record at least 2 guitars on each song depends on how much time we will have.

I have a really nice ampeg bass amp plugin for Cubase, i think i will use that for the bass and see if i can get the same punchy sound as i have on my real amp setup.


Thanks alot, i will probably be spamming this thread with questions when the recordings get serious :D

/Mikkel, HALSBRAND!

Yeah, i really like Ampeg, but I don't like to keep advertising products and things, because I don't think they're necessary, they just make life easier.

Also, my comment about double tracking guitars, you can do it with copy and paste, but you need to move the copy back a few milliseconds. I think in the video below, they've moved it back a bit too much, sounds unnaturaly, but here it is anyway. Not so sure on how he does the vox in part 2 thought

Simple Stereo mixing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3pjZO-4jfA&playnext_from=TL&videos=UxTzmVIueqs&feature=grec_index)

Also, here's a vocal "trick", which if you listen to their results sounds good; dunno if it will work with all songs, but I'm going to give it a try next chance In get.

Vocal Trick (http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=186304&highlight=vocal+trick)

[urananus]

Yeah, i really like Ampeg, but I don't like to keep advertising products and things, because I don't think they're necessary, they just make life easier.

Also, my comment about double tracking guitars, you can do it with copy and paste, but you need to move the copy back a few milliseconds. I think in the video below, they've moved it back a bit too much, sounds unnaturaly, but here it is anyway. Not so sure on how he does the vox in part 2 thought

Simple Stereo mixing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3pjZO-4jfA&playnext_from=TL&videos=UxTzmVIueqs&feature=grec_index)

Also, here's a vocal "trick", which if you listen to their results sounds good; dunno if it will work with all songs, but I'm going to give it a try next chance In get.

Vocal Trick (http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=186304&highlight=vocal+trick)

Also try using slightly different EQ settings for the different guitar tracks.

[theshuttlecocks]

I've got a new song on my profile. I'm not 100% happy with it, but it kinda gets the job done.

Feel free to check it out.

[urananus]

I've got a new song on my profile. I'm not 100% happy with it, but it kinda gets the job done.

Feel free to check it out.

I really like it, I like the lyrics and the way they fit with the tune a lot. I like that it's not at a blistering pace. Some bands don't have the balls to slow down every now and then. Constructive criticism re the recording itself. Drums seem quiet, can't really hear the kick and the rolls seem quiet. Also one of the rolls wasn't played that well. I'm a drummer myself and I suffer from the same thing, I'll record a drum track and then when I listen back there's always a couple of drum rolls that I could have played better. That's why I've started experimenting with dropping the drum rolls in after I've recorded the rhythm, so I don't have that pressure to nail every roll perfectly in one sitting. Finally the vocals. It sounds like you would benefit from getting the singer to rehearse the song a few more times and then doing a better take. Sounds in places like he's reading the lyrics while he's singing them.

[theshuttlecocks]

I really like it, I like the lyrics and the way they fit with the tune a lot. I like that it's not at a blistering pace. Some bands don't have the balls to slow down every now and then. Constructive criticism re the recording itself. Drums seem quiet, can't really hear the kick and the rolls seem quiet. Also one of the rolls wasn't played that well. I'm a drummer myself and I suffer from the same thing, I'll record a drum track and then when I listen back there's always a couple of drum rolls that I could have played better. That's why I've started experimenting with dropping the drum rolls in after I've recorded the rhythm, so I don't have that pressure to nail every roll perfectly in one sitting. Finally the vocals. It sounds like you would benefit from getting the singer to rehearse the song a few more times and then doing a better take. Sounds in places like he's reading the lyrics while he's singing them.


Lol, you're right on all counts. This is more so the band have something to work from as we've all got conflicting schedules at the moment. The singer had changed the way he sang it, and we only had 4 hours to do 3 songs (one of which we wrote), so it's not a finalised song.

I overdubbed the toms because I was trying the recorderman method, which was a waste of time when I had the chance to mic the toms too!

We're going to rerecord it all properly, but using that whole song as the scratch track. So the guitarist can hear the bass and drums. Drummer can hear bass and guitar etc.

I think I lost the kick because it started off so damn loud. It initially took over the whole mix!

Thanks for the advice. Watch this space for a new mix.

[thesecharmingmen]

I've never used computer software for anything besides volume leveling and shaving off drum clicks at the beginning of songs or excessive feedback/bleedover tracks from prior takes at the end of songs. I do all my recording and mixing on a Fostex VF160ex from 2005. Apparently it has been discontinued.
My only gripe with it is you can only apply compression to 2 channels, which kinda sucks if you think about it.
I like to use a Shure SM57 on guitars, or a Sennheiser e906. They seem to do a pretty good job of getting an uncolored sound whenst mashed against the grill cloth of a speaker cabinet.

For bass guitar and bass drums, I've been using a Beyerdynamic TGX50, but I'm looking to switch to something else in the future because I'm not getting the immediate clarity that I'd like to hear from that microphone. It seems to not pick up some of the high end that I like to make things... I don't know... audible? I know what my ear hears when I sit in front of the speaker cone, and it's not quite what the mic picks up. I can clean it up with an EQ later on and get something usable, but in my opinion, it should sound right when you record it. As little processing as possible always makes for the most organic and rich sounding recordings, in my opinion.
However, this could also be because I don't have any form of external compression, and due to hardware limitations (if you only have 16 tracks to work with, you can't spare any for using 2 mics on a bass drum) or I just have a shitty ear for mic placement. Who knows?

Vocals... vocals vocals vocals... the bane of my existence! I have been having fun lately using two mics simultaniously, (Shure Beta 87, or a SM57/58) one clean and one through an overdrive pedal, and then blending the 2 tracks together. If I had a good tube preamp, I wouldn't have to do this because I could just let the sweet sweet tube saturation take care of vocal distortion.
Anyways, after I blend the 2 tracks together, I'll record another vocal take either clean or distorted to beef up the first track. Mob vocals are accomplished by getting a mob of people standing around a mic (usually a Shure Beta87). Rinse and repeat.

I then compress the ever living fuck out of all the vocal tracks to remove any of those pesky 'dynamics' (like when the singer mumbles one part and then belts out the next part as loud as they can) to level everything.

Drums are done different each time, depending on the drummer's kit and how many working mic stands I have available. I've been putting the Sennheiser e906 on the snare, but I think I might switch to the SM57 for next time. I'd been using the 57 as an overhead, which I actually have no problem with. I need to buy more of them... just saw a guy on Craigslist selling 2 for $80 bucks... shoulda jumped on it!

My biggest problem is trying to keep the bass drum and the bass guitar from drowning each other out. Too many similar frequencies, especially when you use the same model mic to record them.

Guitars are fun. If possible, I like to try to record 2 amplifier simultaneously and blend them together. You can get some really full, complex sounds that aren't possible multi tracking, although multitracking is almost always essential. You won't always need to do it, but you should still try most of the time. Try switching guitars, microphones, amplifiers and/or speaker cabinets between tracks, however ISTRONGLY suggest doing all the tracks at once... run through all the songs on one guitar with the same amp and get all the main tracks recorded before you decide to do any secondary tracks because this way you won't fuck with the amp settings/bump the microphone and thus have a drastic and unintentional change of tone from song to song. Remember what I said about making sure it gets recorded right the first time? Don't forget it. Nothing is worse than going back and re-recording tracks because something quite match... you'll never be able to get the same sound again.

Case in point: I recorded the main tracks to our EP months ago, when I intended on singing. Well, I decided I didn't want to sing, so I found us a singer. Everything was going great till we went to put vocals on 'Brainsic'... turns out that song was out of his range in the origionally intended key. Rather than scrap the song, I decided to go back and re-do the guitars and bass. Now the song doesn't fit with all the other songs on our EP, and no amount of tweaking will ever fix it.

So yeah... get it right the first time. And for the love of whatever god you choose to believe or not believe in, DON'T MIX WITH HEADPHONES!!!

[Jersey Jake]

recoding on the computer is the way to go for home recording, you should just have a PA mixing board into the computer's line in.

If you can isolate the computer and keep it away from the recording it will be even better because the fans can generate some background noise.

If you can't, ebay for a panasonic toughbook CF-29,
http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m570.l1313&_nkw=cf-29&_sacat=See-All-Categories

you can get them cheap enough, but you need some technical skills to make this work. This is a good machine, because there is no fans on it, and the only noise comes from the hard disk, and thats muffled inside the thick armored casing. evens still.

http://www.newegg.com/Store/SubCategory.aspx?SubCategory=636&Tpk=solid%20state%20drive

if you got some money to spend, get a solid state drive. Its flash memory, that replaces the hard drive, and its a drop in replacement. You will need a fresh install of windows, but then your golden.

a cf-29 will make absolutely no noise with a SSD. Perfect for recording. In addition these things really are pretty tough, most of the internals are sealed. you can spill beer on it, kick it, step on it, and it won't break.

next you need software.....
http://audacity.sourceforge.net/
Audacity, works on windows, linux and some other unix flavours. Its not only free, but open source, so you can feel good about yourself.

Alternatively, there is Cool Edit/Adobe Audition. Its not free but you can find cracks and serials if you look. It does much much more, including a lot of techinically oriented effects and filters, tone generation, pitch shifting, and all sorts of crazy hacker shit.

both support mutli-tracking, but most PC sound cars won't allow more than one line at a time recording, so I'm all for using an external mixing board.

the onboard sound card is decent on the toughbook, but there are USB soundcards you can use if you really need the extra umph.

Once its all in digital you can do as you please and start burning CDs.

[urananus]

I've been using Logic Express for a couple of years now. In truth I first discovered the merge button a good while back and used it mainly for merging all the good bits from numerous lead vocal takes into one track. The advantage is that I don't have to compress, EQ etc etc etc on loads of different tracks. HOWEVER. This weekend I tried a little experiment. I started merging backing vocal tracks and boy was I pleasantly surprised.

To put it simply, theres a section of the song that requires some Whoa-ohs in the background. I recorded the Woahs on three seperate tracks, then I thought "I wonder what'll happen if I merged them ?". So I did and voila one track 3 voices.

I'm sure this was obvious to someone out there but it was a bit of a eurica moment for me.

Obviously this is no good for key areas of backing vocal where you need to mix it in with a bit more control, eg a single backing vocal repeating or answering the lead vocal. But for what you young people call gang vocals (we just called 'em backing vocals in my day) it's a perfect solution. Saves a bit of CPU and makes the mixing board a little less crowded.

I would imagine that whatever software everyone else is using theres likely to be some sort of merge button.

[prior2janeofficial]

Right I thought I'd revive this thread. I did start it as I was previously The ShuttleCocks. Now in an unashamed way to get hopefully get people to listen to our demos I thought I'd share our recording endeavours by explaining how we got the sound you'll hear; I know it's not perfect, but it came out good enough for demos.

We got to our practice space, which is pretty damn good to be honest. It's a converted barn and the sound in the room is great.
We put four mics over the drums (2x overheads, 1x snare and 1x bass drum)
1 mic on guitar
1 mic on bass

We tried tapping into the PA to get vox, but it wouldn't work.

After a few test runs and mics moved to improve sound (and a load of computer issues) we just hit record and went through our practice without vox (for the most part).

I got home, duplicated the guitar 3 times (4 tracks total). Put two left, and two right. One on each side has been delayed a little to give a fuller sound and the two non-delayed were EQd a bit so they sounded a little different (took a bit of bass out of the left side one to ensure the bass guitar came through)

The bass has been duplicated 2-3 times depending on the track and normalised. One of the tracks had some amp modelling software on it, but the other two EQ'd a little to bring out different sounds.

The snare and bass drum were also doubled. One left normal and one with verb, gating etc. added. they were panned on top of each other and levels messed with so you had a nice mix of the desired sound but still keeping some of the natural-ness and the bleed between sounds.

Overall the pannings were standard, so won't go into those. We overdubbed vocals afterwards and that was pretty much it.

If you do want to know anything more specific let me know. If you want to tell me the songs suck, well your entitled to your opinion.

[urananus]

Right I thought I'd revive this thread. I did start it as I was previously The ShuttleCocks. Now in an unashamed way to get hopefully get people to listen to our demos I thought I'd share our recording endeavours by explaining how we got the sound you'll hear; I know it's not perfect, but it came out good enough for demos.

We got to our practice space, which is pretty damn good to be honest. It's a converted barn and the sound in the room is great.
We put four mics over the drums (2x overheads, 1x snare and 1x bass drum)
1 mic on guitar
1 mic on bass

We tried tapping into the PA to get vox, but it wouldn't work.

After a few test runs and mics moved to improve sound (and a load of computer issues) we just hit record and went through our practice without vox (for the most part).

I got home, duplicated the guitar 3 times (4 tracks total). Put two left, and two right. One on each side has been delayed a little to give a fuller sound and the two non-delayed were EQd a bit so they sounded a little different (took a bit of bass out of the left side one to ensure the bass guitar came through)

The bass has been duplicated 2-3 times depending on the track and normalised. One of the tracks had some amp modelling software on it, but the other two EQ'd a little to bring out different sounds.

The snare and bass drum were also doubled. One left normal and one with verb, gating etc. added. they were panned on top of each other and levels messed with so you had a nice mix of the desired sound but still keeping some of the natural-ness and the bleed between sounds.

Overall the pannings were standard, so won't go into those. We overdubbed vocals afterwards and that was pretty much it.

If you do want to know anything more specific let me know. If you want to tell me the songs suck, well your entitled to your opinion.

Sounding good. One thing I'd suggest is that the vocals sound too relaxed for punk. When doing vocals I find it works best if you give the singer a lot of guitars and drums in the headphones but very little fold back of themselves. That way if the singer has to work twice as hard just to hear themselves in the mix. In other words you force the singer into a position where they have no choice but to attack the mic with everything they've got.

Edit: Vocals is always hard as you are trying to capture energy and passion in the voice and not just something thats in tune.

[prior2janeofficial]

Sounding good. One thing I'd suggest is that the vocals sound too relaxed for punk. When doing vocals I find it works best if you give the singer a lot of guitars and drums in the headphones but very little fold back of themselves. That way if the singer has to work twice as hard just to hear themselves in the mix. In other words you force the singer into a position where they have no choice but to attack the mic with everything they've got.

Edit: Vocals is always hard as you are trying to capture energy and passion in the voice and not just something thats in tune.

We've rerecorded last week because a lot of songs have changed. I think we were a bit too excited to have stuff recorded last time. I'm going to force a better performance out of Ste, our singer/bassist as I've heard him sing better and with more energy. I'll let you know when the new versions are up as advice is always appreciated.

[urananus]

We've rerecorded last week because a lot of songs have changed. I think we were a bit too excited to have stuff recorded last time. I'm going to force a better performance out of Ste, our singer/bassist as I've heard him sing better and with more energy. I'll let you know when the new versions are up as advice is always appreciated.

Cool. Also it's best to remember that the vocalist has to deliver his best "performance" on a recording. If you've got a vocalist who can handle a lot of criticism and is very self critical you'll be fine.

For a good reference as to "how it's done" check out Tim Armstrong's vocals on Rancids "Let's Go" album. I'm sure a lot of punk purists will hate me for it but on paper "Let's Go" shouldn't be that great an album. There are five or six great songs, then a few Ok songs and a helluva lot of filler. Not only is it filler, but it's basically sped up Country and western with a bit of distortion.
Don't believe me ? Go re listen to songs like Tenderloin and Motorcycle ride again only this time imagine fiddles and banjos.

The songs ain't that great, but the way they are delivered is. You feel the energy and conviction in the vocals. That's a very difficult thing to do. I don't know how Tim Armstrong does it, but I guess he imagines he's in front of an audience and singing for his life.

[prior2janeofficial]

Cool. Also it's best to remember that the vocalist has to deliver his best "performance" on a recording. If you've got a vocalist who can handle a lot of criticism and is very self critical you'll be fine.

For a good reference as to "how it's done" check out Tim Armstrong's vocals on Rancids "Let's Go" album. I'm sure a lot of punk purists will hate me for it but on paper "Let's Go" shouldn't be that great an album. There are five or six great songs, then a few Ok songs and a helluva lot of filler. Not only is it filler, but it's basically sped up Country and western with a bit of distortion.
Don't believe me ? Go re listen to songs like Tenderloin and Motorcycle ride again only this time imagine fiddles and banjos.

The songs ain't that great, but the way they are delivered is. You feel the energy and conviction in the vocals. That's a very difficult thing to do. I don't know how Tim Armstrong does it, but I guess he imagines he's in front of an audience and singing for his life.

I love Rancid, but that's not my favourite album. I do totally get your point. It was recorded and mixed in 5 days so legend has it and for that I respect them. If I could get an album like that in that amount of time I'd do it.

Main singer has a little trouble taking criticism, but he's aware of it and tries not to take it personally. In our recent recording session he does 3 songs, guitarist does 1, I do 1. Of the 3, one hasn't got guitar yet, so in a couple of weeks you'll here 2 of his and 1 of guitarist. My contribution is a cover so may not upload that.

I've uploaded a rough mix of a song called DisUnited Kingdom, so you can hear it. I've got a fair bit to do on it, but overall I think it's a pretty good recording. Its the first song on our page and the only one without (demo) next to it, though it is still rough. Have a listen and let me know what you think.

[urananus]

I love Rancid, but that's not my favourite album. I do totally get your point. It was recorded and mixed in 5 days so legend has it and for that I respect them. If I could get an album like that in that amount of time I'd do it.

Main singer has a little trouble taking criticism, but he's aware of it and tries not to take it personally. In our recent recording session he does 3 songs, guitarist does 1, I do 1. Of the 3, one hasn't got guitar yet, so in a couple of weeks you'll here 2 of his and 1 of guitarist. My contribution is a cover so may not upload that.

I've uploaded a rough mix of a song called DisUnited Kingdom, so you can hear it. I've got a fair bit to do on it, but overall I think it's a pretty good recording. Its the first song on our page and the only one without (demo) next to it, though it is still rough. Have a listen and let me know what you think.

Wow. Thats really coming together well.

Reminds me a little of this

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/e57EuGGgYjw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Especially the guitar sound, which considering thats the classic Steve Jones guitar sound it is absolutely meant as a massive complement. So I'd say whatever you are doing to record guitars, don't change a thing (just my opinion). Bass is good, altho it's hard to tell on tiny computer speakers. In my experience bass is always a pain, you get it sounding right in the studio monitors then find it's too quiet on the PC and too loud in headphones. I hate mixing bass. Drums sound really good for what it is, could maybe use a little more punch, but that's me being over critical as I am well aware that you are working to a budget. It seems that drums are the hardest thing to nail on a budget.
Vocals. Delivery is better. I'm starting to suspect that I'm just not a fan of your singers voice (sorry). If it's any consolation I've never liked the guy from 999's voice either. Backing vocals. Too loud when the backing vocals come in. The vocals seem to stand out above the music rather than be a part of it.

[prior2janeofficial]

Wow. Thats really coming together well.

Reminds me a little of this

<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/e57EuGGgYjw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Especially the guitar sound, which considering thats the classic Steve Jones guitar sound it is absolutely meant as a massive complement. So I'd say whatever you are doing to record guitars, don't change a thing (just my opinion). Bass is good, altho it's hard to tell on tiny computer speakers. In my experience bass is always a pain, you get it sounding right in the studio monitors then find it's too quiet on the PC and too loud in headphones. I hate mixing bass. Drums sound really good for what it is, could maybe use a little more punch, but that's me being over critical as I am well aware that you are working to a budget. It seems that drums are the hardest thing to nail on a budget.
Vocals. Delivery is better. I'm starting to suspect that I'm just not a fan of your singers voice (sorry). If it's any consolation I've never liked the guy from 999's voice either. Backing vocals. Too loud when the backing vocals come in. The vocals seem to stand out above the music rather than be a part of it.

Just back off holiday and knackered, so apologies if this doesn't make much sense.

Thanks for the compliment on the guitar, I've been very happy with it so far. Bass annoys the hell out of me from a recording perspective, but the actual tone of it etc, I'm happy with, so it's just the mixing I need to work on.

Drums I'm never going to be happy with because I'm a drummer, lol. I'm going to have a play with the snare and kick to try and make them stand out.

Yeah, I don't think Ste's vox will be to everyone's taste. He's still not perfected his recording vox. He says things like "I don't do shouty vocals" but when he has to sing with us in practice he's pushing his voice and he gets a more aggressive tone.
Tom - the guitarist, is also doing lead vocals and we've got WWJD re-recorded with him singing lead. Still not an overly aggressive tone (I do that stuff) but offers a different element to the song and give's Ste's vocal chords a break.

Thanks for all the comments, it keeps me perfecting the songs.

[urananus]

Just back off holiday and knackered, so apologies if this doesn't make much sense.

Thanks for the compliment on the guitar, I've been very happy with it so far. Bass annoys the hell out of me from a recording perspective, but the actual tone of it etc, I'm happy with, so it's just the mixing I need to work on.

Drums I'm never going to be happy with because I'm a drummer, lol. I'm going to have a play with the snare and kick to try and make them stand out.

Yeah, I don't think Ste's vox will be to everyone's taste. He's still not perfected his recording vox. He says things like "I don't do shouty vocals" but when he has to sing with us in practice he's pushing his voice and he gets a more aggressive tone.
Tom - the guitarist, is also doing lead vocals and we've got WWJD re-recorded with him singing lead. Still not an overly aggressive tone (I do that stuff) but offers a different element to the song and give's Ste's vocal chords a break.

Thanks for all the comments, it keeps me perfecting the songs.

I always think it's more difficult for vocalists who "don't do shouty vocals". If you don't do shouty then you have to be a singer, no getting away from it. Singing is hard, you need to be in tune and on key all the time. And you also need to have an interesting, soulful and likeable voice, otherwise no one will buy it. Some people can sing but will never be singers, others are great singers but aren't performers, some are great performers but poor singers (my oldest bestest friend is one of those). Some think they are great singers and performers but...

I work with a guy who is a very good soul singer, very good. It eats him alive why he's not a pop star when people with more average voices are. And he's right, he's a better singer than a lot of the RnB and pop singers on TV (especially those on X factor). Truth is, he's not likeable. I wouldn't tell him that to his face cos it'd hurt his feelings, but he's the sort of guy it's easy not to like. He comes across as an arrogant, patronising, know it all. And people tend not to respond positively to that.

Your singer clearly can sing but if I'm honest, as the listener I'm not feeling it and believing it. And that's a real hard thing to capture in a recording. Soul, emotion, feeling, heartbreak, pain, loss etc etc. You either get it down or you don't and I don't really have any advice or ideas as to how it's done. I guess it's a little bit of magic that either does or doesn't happen during the session. It's that extra 1%

Your singer probably has it in him. Maybe a swift kick in the shin before you hit record will help :)

Don't get me wrong I'm not a good singer, I wish I was but I'm not. I'm Ok at back up vocals but only Ok.

But I do pretty good shouty.

[prior2janeofficial]

I always think it's more difficult for vocalists who "don't do shouty vocals". If you don't do shouty then you have to be a singer, no getting away from it. Singing is hard, you need to be in tune and on key all the time. And you also need to have an interesting, soulful and likeable voice, otherwise no one will buy it. Some people can sing but will never be singers, others are great singers but aren't performers, some are great performers but poor singers (my oldest bestest friend is one of those). Some think they are great singers and performers but...

I work with a guy who is a very good soul singer, very good. It eats him alive why he's not a pop star when people with more average voices are. And he's right, he's a better singer than a lot of the RnB and pop singers on TV (especially those on X factor). Truth is, he's not likeable. I wouldn't tell him that to his face cos it'd hurt his feelings, but he's the sort of guy it's easy not to like. He comes across as an arrogant, patronising, know it all. And people tend not to respond positively to that.

Your singer clearly can sing but if I'm honest, as the listener I'm not feeling it and believing it. And that's a real hard thing to capture in a recording. Soul, emotion, feeling, heartbreak, pain, loss etc etc. You either get it down or you don't and I don't really have any advice or ideas as to how it's done. I guess it's a little bit of magic that either does or doesn't happen during the session. It's that extra 1%

Your singer probably has it in him. Maybe a swift kick in the shin before you hit record will help :)

Don't get me wrong I'm not a good singer, I wish I was but I'm not. I'm Ok at back up vocals but only Ok.

But I do pretty good shouty.

I know where you coming from. I told him I'd stamp on his foot or something to illicit a bit more anger next time. I've meant musicians (not just singers) who aren't likeable but are very talented so I know exactly what you mean.

I do reasonably good shouty too. I sing our cover of Blitzkrieg Bop. It's not an original choice, but after we played through it pissed on Rock Band and they heard me sing it I was told we had to do it. That's about all I can do, slightly British, slightly well spoken Joey Ramone!

I think ideally I need to get Ste singing in an environment without Tom, the guitarist. We had a great time recording the vocals but we did end up mucking about a bit and I think it took away from the performance a little. I know he can sing these songs really fucking well, but capturing that is the hardest part.... I always thought drums were the hardest part!

I'm hoping to rerecord this week, though I'm a little burnt out, so it may not happen. I'll upload when I can, hopefully we another three new recordings.

[!straightfuckingedge]

It's all about cassette man, 4 track reel to reel into a compact cassette recorder totally boss as fuck!

[urananus]

It's all about cassette man, 4 track reel to reel into a compact cassette recorder totally boss as fuck!

You can certainly get a warmer sound from tape. I've heard of people who record and mix on a computer, then master to tape. But truth is you are limited with a 4 track cassette. I've recorded using both 4 track and 8 track tape (cassette and reel to reel). Firstly there's a danger of parts of the recording literally falling off the edges of the tape. With reel to reel this would be tracks 1 and 8 and with cassette 1,2,3 and 4. Then there's the obvious limitation in the number of tracks available. Less of a problem with the 8 track but with each bounce your sound degrades a little. You can get good results with 4 tracks but they simply do not compare (in my opinion) to a digital set up. My software comes with EQs, Compressors, Noise Gates, Reverb, mastering tools and tons more that I don't even use. It would cost a fortune to buy all these extras as outboard units. (That said I do want to buy outboard compressors and gates sometime) I can also bounce straight down to about 6 different file types straight from the mixing desk. If you really love using 4 track you'd be better getting something like a Tascam digital recording unit. You get the familiar feel of an old style 4 track recorder, the same work method, but no sound degradation.

[!straightfuckingedge]

That's weird cos' i've never had problems with my tapes. Not even once. I guess somethings are different

[prior2janeofficial]

You can certainly get a warmer sound from tape. I've heard of people who record and mix on a computer, then master to tape. But truth is you are limited with a 4 track cassette. I've recorded using both 4 track and 8 track tape (cassette and reel to reel). Firstly there's a danger of parts of the recording literally falling off the edges of the tape. With reel to reel this would be tracks 1 and 8 and with cassette 1,2,3 and 4. Then there's the obvious limitation in the number of tracks available. Less of a problem with the 8 track but with each bounce your sound degrades a little. You can get good results with 4 tracks but they simply do not compare (in my opinion) to a digital set up. My software comes with EQs, Compressors, Noise Gates, Reverb, mastering tools and tons more that I don't even use. It would cost a fortune to buy all these extras as outboard units. (That said I do want to buy outboard compressors and gates sometime) I can also bounce straight down to about 6 different file types straight from the mixing desk. If you really love using 4 track you'd be better getting something like a Tascam digital recording unit. You get the familiar feel of an old style 4 track recorder, the same work method, but no sound degradation.

What's your rig like in terms of hardware at the moment? I work on Cubase (probably mentioned that in the first post) and aside from that I just use a Presonus FP10 to get what's going into the mics onto the computer. i'm always fascinated by racks of gear, but I wouldn't no where to begin to hook them up to what I've got now, or how to use them!


Also, I think I've finally got some decent mixes of the songs I've recorded. Check my profile for the latest.

[urananus]

That's weird cos' i've never had problems with my tapes. Not even once. I guess somethings are different

It may not always be audible.
http://searchstorage.techtarget.com/definition/dropout

[urananus]

What's your rig like in terms of hardware at the moment? I work on Cubase (probably mentioned that in the first post) and aside from that I just use a Presonus FP10 to get what's going into the mics onto the computer. i'm always fascinated by racks of gear, but I wouldn't no where to begin to hook them up to what I've got now, or how to use them!


Also, I think I've finally got some decent mixes of the songs I've recorded. Check my profile for the latest.

Will do.
I'm using an Alesis 16 USB http://www.alesis.com/multimix16usb20
It's quite nice, guess it should be for around £500. I've heard good things about Presonus.